LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

My question is about my reraise on the turn - I figure I have a split and a good chance for scooping. Since EVERYBODY is in already lets pump the pot. In retrospect I figure I was going to ge only PART of the Low if I don't hit.

Good? Bad??

PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (28 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 34 BB

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

Raise pre-flop, jam flop, jam turn, check river.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

Not to argue but I'm not sure I want to raise preflop with a hand that basically a 2 card hand that can be counterfited real easely for the Low. Do I????

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

Raise preflop, jam flop and turn, call river.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not to argue but I'm not sure I want to raise preflop with a hand that basically a 2 card hand that can be counterfited real easely for the Low. Do I????

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you do. Gambool.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

Explain why I should raise pre-flop. The reason for raising is to
1. get people OUT of the hand
2. get people already in the hand to put more money in it.

Is it because the hand is not that good so I raise to get people OUT of it?

Explain why I should raise. If it is a hand that I think I can scoop the pot if I hit why would I raise to get people not to play the hand.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Explain why I should raise pre-flop. The reason for raising is to
1. get people OUT of the hand
2. get people already in the hand to put more money in it.

Is it because the hand is not that good so I raise to get people OUT of it?

Explain why I should raise. If it is a hand that I think I can scoop the pot if I hit why would I raise to get people not to play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that you Buzz?

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

No No - it's Grinder, caretaker of

Grinders not so boring and SOMETIMES entertaining Poker/Life BLOG

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Explain why I should raise pre-flop. The reason for raising is to
1. get people OUT of the hand
2. get people already in the hand to put more money in it.

Is it because the hand is not that good so I raise to get people OUT of it?

Explain why I should raise. If it is a hand that I think I can scoop the pot if I hit why would I raise to get people not to play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your opponents are not going to fold just because you raised. They're simply going to call two bets cold with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] instead of one. Your hand is good. Build the pot.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

I think you played it pretty well, though I would have check called on the river in case I get quartered. Is that what happened here? I may have considered a preflop raise, but it's not automatic for me. You guys sound like you usually raise preflop with any A2xx. Is that true? Sometimes I'll raise with a hand like that, sometimes I won't. It depends on how the rest of the table is playing. Does the suited ace make a difference in whether or not you are raising preflop?

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

OK - MY strategy would have been to raise if I had something else besides the suited Ace AND if I had 3 others in the hand. Perhaps I'm to afraid of folding people with a raise, not enough experience.

Being new to the game I'll still learning.

As for what happened. I don't have the results in front of me but . . . .

MP3 had A2 AND a 10 high straight.
SB had A2 plus 2 pairs AND a set.(how many outs is THAT)
Hero had A2 and a sweet nut flush draw :-(

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]

SB had A2 plus 2 pairs AND a set.(how many outs is THAT)


[/ QUOTE ]

2 pair + set just means that he loses 2 of his own outs, not gains them, also helps you on the flush draw as board is less likely to pair up.

Although, I call B.S. actually. You can't have A2 (neither on board), 2 pairs, and a set with less than 6 hole cards.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My question is about my reraise on the turn - I figure I have a split and a good chance for scooping. Since EVERYBODY is in already lets pump the pot. In retrospect I figure I was going to ge only PART of the Low if I don't hit.

Good? Bad??

PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (28 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 34 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I play it the exact same way you do, only Im check/calling the river.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Although, I call B.S. actually. You can't have A2 (neither on board), 2 pairs, and a set with less than 6 hole cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have to look to see what he REALLY had. Heat of the battle and all that I never looked.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

Pre-flop:
I would just call pre-flop to try and get the players behind me in the pot too. Raising is also reasonable to get all the players who limped to pay an extra bet with hands that yours will be ahead of.

Flop:
It is criminal not to raise this flop. You are going to have enough equity to raise plus it will earn you a free river if you miss the turn.

Turn:
Raise the first time that is comes around to you. There is no way that you don't have enough equity to raise here.

River:
Check call, or CR depending on how many people call MP3 bet. You should know that the aggressor is 1 set behind you, use this information. If you bet and he raises do you think that A4 or 67 are going to cold call 2 here? You want them in the pot you don't want to push them out. If you check and aggressor bets and 3 people call, raise and everyone will call.

Don’t take this to harshly but I think you really misplayed this hand. You were calling when you should be betting and betting when you should be calling.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I'll raise with a hand like that, sometimes I won't. It depends on how the rest of the table is playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the right advice, in my opinion. It depends on table reads. It almost always depends on table reads. With a hand like this, you want players. You have 3 nut draws -- nut low, nut flush, and nut straight. At $1/$2, chances are generally good that most will call the raise. But if your reads (or your tracker) tell you that the remaining players are tight, I would call and bring them along with me.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although, I call B.S. actually. You can't have A2 (neither on board), 2 pairs, and a set with less than 6 hole cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have to look to see what he REALLY had. Heat of the battle and all that I never looked.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you just made up the results?

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

Those are the results as I know them. I was quartered, I was not sure if SB actually HAD 2 pair and a set. I'll look when I get home. All three of us had A2.

As for taking the anything the wrong way - no problem. I've only been playing LO8 for a month and only have 2000 hands in so lots of things come up that are new.

I'm in the 2.5BB/100 range but as we all know that's pretty meaningless. All I know is I no longer make the dumb-ass mistakes like trying to play 3 cards LOL

I have PT-O and Turbo Omaha and . . 5? books so I'm not clueless, just inexperienced.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop, jam flop and turn, call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

If the better was to my immediate right, I would only call on both flop and river. With your hand, try to get as much money in as possible.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

I think preflop and the flop are close decisions in whether or not to raise.

But preflop seems like a good raise. Worst case scenario is that you'll make everyone fold except for the two limpers. But you collected some more bets preflop and act last. But most of the time you'll still get someone behind as well as the BB. Especially at 1/2.

Calling the flop seems ideal to me as all of your draws are to the nuts and you want any A3s, non nut flush draws, and other weak hands to call. If you had A3 instead of A2 I think a raise might be better. It might make an A3 fold. Then you could take a free card (if available) if turn missed to try and spike a heart or 2.

Turn, I'd raise the first time and keep pumping like it was Pamela Anderson.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

SB might have THOUGHT he had one thing but what he actually had is different - still good but . . . . .


Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Qs 6c Ah 2h (Low: 8, 5, 3, 2, A | High: high card, ace).
MP3 has 2c 7c Ad Js (Low: 8, 5, 3, 2, A | High: straight, jack high).
SB has Qc 3s 2s Ac (Low: 8, 5, 3, 2, A | High: one pair, threes).
Outcome: MP3 wins 22.66 BB. Hero wins 5.66 BB. SB wins 5.66 BB. </font>

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

On the turn you were getting 6 way action for most of the bets, so even if you were getting 6th(as it turned out),it was not costing you any money to freeroll for the high draw. But suppose the turn had started out with 4 opponents instead of 5. If you think you may most likely get quartered but may only get 1/6 if you don't hit your flush draw,you should jam. If you put in 1/5th of the money &amp; get back either 1/4th or 1/6th,the amount that you win or lose will not change significantly if you jam it. BUT,if you hit your nut flush draw it will certainly make a difference.So you are basically freerolling(cheaprolling ?) for the flush draw.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

Raise pre-flop, call flop, jam turn, call river.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

Suppose you KNOW that someone else has A2. Also suppose you are only in a 4 handed pot. Should you raise with nut low and a nut flush draw?

Well, we have assumed another A2, so there are only 42 unknown cards instead of the usual 44. Furthermore, we now get to assume that only 4 cards can harm us. (and qutie often our A6 backup will do the job anyhow). Let's also assume that all 9 hearts give us a winner. Not always true, but I already ignored a benefit of the A6. Each raise on the turn will cost us one bet when we get counterfeited. Each raise on the rutn will be neutral when we miss. Each raise on the turn will WIN 2 big bets when we make the straight. In 42 hands, this means a profit of 18-4 = 14 bets. Failing to raise in that situation is a crime against humanity. Amazingly, it is even OK to raise 3 handed if we now make the rational assumption that your A6 will, on average, still get you a tie for low.

In rough terms, raising on nut low with a high redraw against 2 opponents offers you 5-1 on your money even if one oppnent has the nut low too. So... nut flush draws and 8+ way straight draws are enough. And if there is any reasonable chance that your low is the only one, raising is correct with any decent shot for high at all, especially if it can make the current high hand fold. All kinds of good things happen for you and the other low hand if you can get this to happen.

In a related issue, when the pot is 5+ handed raising and re-raising on nut low is correct, even with no redraw and no protection. The only time this fails to be true is if your raises drive the number of players below 5. And of course if you have backup or you actually have the only low, raising is far more profitable than in the cases where you are currently tied.

In essence, the 5th player puts 1/4 bet in your stack for the raise. On the 38 'safe' rivers, this is a total profit of 9.5 bets. On the 4 bad river, you lose 4 bets by raising.

Re: LO8 1/2 - Was I wrong in pumping this Pot?
 

Exactly, Mr.Morgan. Good analysis. Right on.