It\'s a big flop.
 

This was a nice table. What's your play on the flop?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (25 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero?

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

Call down. Fold to any further aggression other than a bet by UTG. He pretty much either has a set of aces here, or something you are crushing. Turn a K. You table select g00t.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

I was kinda thinking more along the lines of a raise...

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

Any reads? If not, UTG's capping range is probably something like AA/KK/QQ/AK. If this is the case, we're way behind to his range (or splitting with the other KK).

I think UTG either has KK/QQ or is waiting to check-raise with AA.

We can't protect our hand by raising here anyway, so just call, see what UTG does, and re-evaluate on the turn.

MP2 waking up and betting on this completely uncoordinated board is extremely alarming (especially readless). I think we're boned, so i'm folding the turn UI assuming MP2 continues to bet, and doubly so if UTG goes nuts as well.

Note that the pot is so big that you're getting odds to draw to your set, so even though we're behind a huge amount of the time, we can't fold yet.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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I was kinda thinking more along the lines of a raise...

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Why do you want to raise? MP2 is donk betting into you. You three bet pre-flop. He knows you have a good hand. He pretty much has to have at least top pair to make this bet. He's not folding top pair if you raise, right? I mean, would you? If you can make a compelling argument that raising here improves your chances of winning this pot, then by all means, raise. However, even if you raise, gutshots can draw profitably. Bottom pair can even draw profitably. Top pair will not fold. The pot is just too big, and your hand isn't really vunerable to anything (if it isn't already crushed). Why not just draw to your 2 outer (which you are getting great odds for) and allow the rest of the donkeys that are tagging along to provide a massive overlay on your call-down?

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

These situations are brutal...with this many people on the flop you are almost certainly up against an Ace.

The fact that MP2 has just bet tells you that he has something and with the board totally uncoordinated (except for the possibility of a gutshot straight) you are most likely up against some Ace.

The fact that UTG has just checked means one of two things:

1) He has a smaller pocket pair.
2) He has a set of Aces (*maybe* AK) and will either be check raising here or on the Turn.

This pot is huge, I am talking family size...this is one of those rare instances where you are actually getting odds to draw to your set. You get these odds here, but you won't probably won't get them on the turn, so my line is to get to the Showdown as cheaply as possible and maybe spike a King along the way (one can only hope), so I raise here. If I get my King on the turn I am pumping in bets. If I miss my King and it checks to me then I check through and call the River bet (hoping there is only one).

If anyone reads this and thinks that I am crazy please tell me so...that way when I wind up here I don't actually do this. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


EDIT:

I need to add that any aggressive action by UTG makes me really, really queasy. I imagine that he is holding AA/KK/AKs/AKo(maybe)/QQ(maybe). If he goes crazy then he probably has a set of Aces or *maybe* AK, in which case we are drawing to 1 card - and the only way you hit one card is if you are HU against me (sorry, a little morbid, woe-is-me, bad beat huimor there). [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


EDIT EDIT:

Something else that a raise does here is, if anyone has a pocket pair you are forcing them to draw to a set with improper odds.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

I didn't provide any reads because all my opponents were very bad. If the flop better had an Ace I was pretty sure it wasn't a good one. I wanted to take the momentum away from him with my position and maybe, just maybe get a free look at the river.
Sklansky and co. often say that you should do whatever you can to win the really big pots. I figured that this was the case here.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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I didn't provide any reads because all my opponents were very bad. If the flop better had an Ace I was pretty sure it wasn't a good one. I wanted to take the momentum away from him with my position and maybe, just maybe get a free look at the river.
Sklansky and co. often say that you should do whatever you can to win the really big pots. I figured that this was the case here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's the thing - if you are willing to concede the possibility that he has an A, you must also be willing to concede that he will not fold. If he does have an A, you would be better off having 95o here than KK. Another thing to consider about a raise - that damn UTG player. He is either sitting on a monster or just absolutely owned right now. If you raise, and he three bets, what do you do? You have just made it cost one more unnecessary BB to get to showdown (if you still intend to show your hand down, that is). Also, if I understand you right, you are trying for some version of the free card play. The problem is, you are drawing to a 2 outer if you are behind. Are you intending to check the turn if you don't spike a K? I don't understand making a free card play when you are drawing to two outs. It's not like the free card is really going to help you win the pot (although it would get you to showdown cheaper if it worked) since your draw is so unlikely to come in. Now, consider the case where your free card play doesn't work, and MP2 ends up betting the turn when a blank falls. I just can't see any reason at all to raise this flop when you are being priced in for your set draw, and you are under the suspicion that MP2 has an A, even if it is a weak one. I guess my point is that seeing the river cheaply doesn't improve your chance to win this pot (especially when you aren't folding - you aren't folding, right?) - spiking a K does.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

Call it down. We want a showdown.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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Call it down. We want a showdown.

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What's your plan if UTG checkraises the field on the flop or turn? I would give serious consideration to folding.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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Call it down. We want a showdown.

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What's your plan if UTG checkraises the field on the flop or turn? I would give serious consideration to folding.

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Firstly, we're never folding a flop check-raise.

On the turn, I might do it if I had a read.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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Call it down. We want a showdown.

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What's your plan if UTG checkraises the field on the flop or turn? I would give serious consideration to folding.

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Firstly, we're never folding a flop check-raise.

On the turn, I might do it if I had a read.

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Ya, I was referencing the turn. I don't think we will be getting odds to draw to our set if he CRs the field on the turn (depending on what happens in between him and MP2).

Out of curiosity, what hand range do you assign to UTG? I am pretty sure he has to have AA, KK, or QQ right here, with QQ being the most probable.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

Here's the whole hand.


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (25 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (16.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

River: (20.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, UTG folds, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 29.50 BB

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

You turn goot. Followed my plan for the turn to a T. Nice pot. I don't suppose you would mind posting what each player had?

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

The sb had 99 and the flop better had A3o. Like I said, a good table. It's a pity he slowplayed the turn though.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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The sb had 99 and the flop better had A3o. Like I said, a good table. It's a pity he slowplayed the turn though.

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You sir, are a luckbox.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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The sb had 99 and the flop better had A3o. Like I said, a good table. It's a pity he slowplayed the turn though.

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You sir, are a luckbox.

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I work hard at it. I sacrifice a chicken before every playing session. I used to do kittens but Wookie took that over.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

Why didn't SB cap the river with his AA.;)

Scrap that. 99, bad slowplay. You deserved it.[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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Why didn't SB cap the river with his AA.;)

Scrap that. 99, bad slowplay. You deserved it.[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I was going to write a post that basically amounted to "WTF?" when I read what you wrote, but I figured I'd let it slide.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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The sb had 99 and the flop better had A3o. Like I said, a good table. It's a pity he slowplayed the turn though.

[/ QUOTE ]
You sir, are a luckbox.

[/ QUOTE ]

I work hard at it. I sacrifice a chicken before every playing session. I used to do kittens but Wookie took that over.

[/ QUOTE ]
In all seriousness, I hope you see what I'm saying when I assert that a flop raise does not increase your chances to win this pot if you are already behind. This is a call &gt; raise &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; fold situation on the flop.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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Why didn't SB cap the river with his AA.;)

Scrap that. 99, bad slowplay. You deserved it.[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I was going to write a post that basically amounted to "WTF?" when I read what you wrote, but I figured I'd let it slide.

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I hadn't seen the results when I started this one. If SB had capped the river and turned over AA, 1000 new kittens would have been born that very second.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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In all seriousness, I hope you see what I'm saying when I assert that a flop raise does not increase your chances to win this pot if you are already behind. This is a call &gt; raise &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; fold situation on the flop.

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Yeah, but I can't get over the feeling that just calling on the flop here is pissweak after the preflop action. Does playing it this way make you too predictable? A fit or fold player? Or are the players so bad that this doesn't matter?

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

against these many opponents i would play your hand as a weak draw and call the flop and fold the turn UI since the odds dictate so. i really cant think your hand is best right now and if u raise u better be doing it for a freecard and hope someone doesnt donk it on the turn.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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In all seriousness, I hope you see what I'm saying when I assert that a flop raise does not increase your chances to win this pot if you are already behind. This is a call &gt; raise &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; fold situation on the flop.

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Yeah, but I can't get over the feeling that just calling on the flop here is pissweak after the preflop action. Does playing it this way make you too predictable? A fit or fold player? Or are the players so bad that this doesn't matter?

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A fit or fold player would just fold this flop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] And sure, it might seem weak, but how smart does putting in a raise with the third best hand sound? I highly doubt you'll find that recommended in any book you read. This is just a situation where you have a draw. You are getting odds to draw, so you draw. You don't have a pot equity edge, though.. so raising is ill-advised - especially when it's unlikely to knock anyone out or serve any other useful purpose as a free card isn't going to significantly improve your chances to win this pot. Also, it opens the action back up for a three-bet. If I got three bet on this flop after raising, I would choke on the vomit I just swallowed. Besides, as you saw, if you hit, they still will pay out like a slot machine with a second best hand.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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Yeah, but I can't get over the feeling that just calling on the flop here is pissweak after the preflop action. Does playing it this way make you too predictable? A fit or fold player? Or are the players so bad that this doesn't matter?

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My biggest leak, and the one thing holding me back from moving up was thinking this way. Then I realise every situation is independant, and re-assessment with an openness to all options is needed to further your game.

We don't need to show our poker penis by raising every situation. The better players now days are the ones whom aren't TAG's, but TANs, whom call, manipulate, induce bluffing, and see showdowns. The higher limit boards are starting to realise it.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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Yeah, but I can't get over the feeling that just calling on the flop here is pissweak after the preflop action. Does playing it this way make you too predictable? A fit or fold player? Or are the players so bad that this doesn't matter?

[/ QUOTE ]

My biggest leak, and the one thing holding me back from moving up was thinking this way. Then I realise every situation is independant, and re-assessment with an openness to all options is needed to further your game.

We don't need to show our poker penis by raising every situation. The better players now days are the ones whom aren't TAG's, but TANs, whom call, manipulate, induce bluffing, and see showdowns. The higher limit boards are starting to realise it.

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That's an interesting post. I'll have to think about this for a while, mull it over in the old thick cranium that I so proudly possess.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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Yeah, but I can't get over the feeling that just calling on the flop here is pissweak after the preflop action. Does playing it this way make you too predictable? A fit or fold player? Or are the players so bad that this doesn't matter?

[/ QUOTE ]

My biggest leak, and the one thing holding me back from moving up was thinking this way. Then I realise every situation is independant, and re-assessment with an openness to all options is needed to further your game.

We don't need to show our poker penis by raising every situation. The better players now days are the ones whom aren't TAG's, but TANs, whom call, manipulate, induce bluffing, and see showdowns. The higher limit boards are starting to realise it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an interesting post. I'll have to think about this for a while, mull it over in the old thick cranium that I so proudly possess.

[/ QUOTE ]
Will your eyepatch factor into your mulling? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

*Grunch*

He doesn't have an ace for sure yet. We could peel but i dont like calling.

If we raise i dont think we get rid of much of the field due to HUGE POT.

However i will raise this, face 2 cold and theres very few draws on this board.

If MP1 3bets call and fold river UI. Also if UTG gets aggressive after you raise and its one back to you(if 2 fold) then call and fold turn UI.

I think against a big field we must spike a king, which is unlikly.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

call and pray for a set

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

Peel one off for sure. You have odds to make a set. The turn may be a harder decision if you don't get another King.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was kinda thinking more along the lines of a raise...

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think that's a good idea as I'd guess your behind an Ace, a set of Nines, a set of Threes or Aces over Nines about a combined 90% of the time here.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky and co. often say that you should do whatever you can to win the really big pots. I figured that this was the case here.

[/ QUOTE ] They mean when you can improve your chances of winning by knocking out players with better hands or draws. For instance, if you hold A8 on a K87 flop, you might be able to knock out someone with QQ, JJ, or TT if you raise with your MPTK. You might also be able to knock out someone with a JT gutshot.

On this board with a huge pot, your not going to knock out any better hands which is any ace, and I don't see any draws you can knock out either. I think your behind and drawing to two outs and I don't see how raising is going to help you much even if you could knock someone out.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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The better players now days are the ones whom aren't TAG's, but TANs, whom call, manipulate, induce bluffing, and see showdowns. The higher limit boards are starting to realise it.

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Ok....forgive the dumb question, but it's early and I haven't had enough coffee yet. What's a TAN? Tight, Agressive,????

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

TAN = tight aggressive before the flop neutral (not SO aggressive, but still aggressive) after the flop.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

This is a raise or fold, the field is large and with heavy action preflop. I find it very unlikely that we're not behind here. I'd consider it as a 2 outer, since we have the odds to call, I suggest a raise in order to buy some outs. If not improved I think we have to fold the turn. I would also hesitate to call a C/R.

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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This is a raise or fold,

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If you're even considering folding here then you don't understand pot odds, (let alone implied odds.)

Re: It\'s a big flop.
 

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The sb had 99 and the flop better had A3o. Like I said, a good table. It's a pity he slowplayed the turn though.

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You sir, are a luckbox.

[/ QUOTE ]

I work hard at it. I sacrifice a chicken before every playing session. I used to do kittens but Wookie took that over.

[/ QUOTE ]
In all seriousness, I hope you see what I'm saying when I assert that a flop raise does not increase your chances to win this pot if you are already behind. This is a call &gt; raise &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; fold situation on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't grunch (at work), but this makes the most sense. When you got donkbet, you were likely facing Ax, two crappy pair, or a set, which put you way behind. You're not causing any of these better hand than yours to fold here by raising. Take the odds on making your set and call. I probably would have called&gt;folded (weak/tight). As it turns out, you put two bets in, which did not protect your hand, and lucked out because you didn't get 3-bet, and hit your set on the turn. I try to be mindful possible incorrect decisions being rewarded with a big pot. This can set my mind to making the same incorrect decision again.