AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

No read on UTG.

UTG raises to 35, folded to you in the bb with AQ

You call.

Flop is QT2, two [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. You check, he bets 70, and you call.

Turn is the 4o. Pot is 213. You lead for 125. He calls.

Pot is about 470 now. River 9o which is kind of scary bc it could have made the straight.

What's your play.

If you check, how much can you call?

Oh effective stacks 1k

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

nh

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

great reply thanks. that was really illuminating, AZK.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

If you check the river it kinda looks like you have missed clubs or a lone Queen that wants it checked down. If he had two pair or something that had you on the flop or turn, I think he would've pushed a bit harder. If I check the end I'd have to suck it up and call up to a pot sized bet on the river. Although I'd prefer leading for 250-300 on the river and look for a call from a worse queen which may check behind.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

you know why i said what i did.

I probably check/call 200 or less. Maybe throw out 175 instead and fold if raised. Likely holdings for utg? AA - TT AK - AT? KQs - KJs, KQo?

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

no one?

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

seems like a good spot for a blocking bet, especially against an unknown. Maybe in the 150-200 range. I'm guessing AZK was villian.

I really don't like a riv. check, but if I did, I think I'd have to call anything less than 300. However, I'd probably just go with my gut if I were in your shoes whether to call or not.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

Curious why you were not more aggressive on the flop. This seems like a good time to find out where you stand.

Marlow

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

What do you think the odds are that you're ahead here? Even money? I check and call up to a pot-sized bet here because I think that you're ahead on the river enough to make it +EV.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

I think I'd rather c/r the flop or lead the turn for more money here hoping to end the hand. Your line has you building a big pot with a one pair hand on a draw-heavy board.

Just my .02.

NT

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
seems like a good spot for a blocking bet

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't want to check here, makes me feel way to vulnerable here, especially if AZK is the villain. he will push his hand more than what i am willing to call. your position puts you in a tight spot [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img].

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

i'm not villain, jus talked it over beforehand with prev

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not villain, jus talked it over beforehand with prev

[/ QUOTE ]
regardless, do you prefer a blocking bet here?

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a good time to find out where you stand.


[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a good time to find out where you stand.


[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. You are clearly adding a lot of value to this discussion.

How about instead of being snide and self-important, you actually just focus on the poker and not denegrate the people and opinions you disagree with?

Oh, and there's not a damned thing wrong with my suggestion. If you disagree, let's hear it.

Marlow

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

Your method will bloat the pot with a marginal hand out of position and you still won't know where you are if the villain is any good. OP's line is nice. I make a blocking bet on the river and fold to a raise.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

Greg Nice should really pony up here, but I'd like to answer this.

[ QUOTE ]
Your method will bloat the pot with a marginal hand out of position and you still won't know where you are if the villain is any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, we have no idea if villian is any good. But just for a moment, let's assume he is. A "good" player may very well interpret the flop call as weak and bang the turn again with air. I know lots of people on this forum (including me) who do this sort of thing every session. Since a big turn bet communicates that he's willing to play for your stack, then you could be in trouble.

Second, how is giving a free card on a draw-heavy board with TPTK a good idea? Including kings, there are no fewer than 18 cards that are scary here. Do I think checking is horrible? No. It's not the line I would usually take, but it makes sense to me. I think calling is quite bad, though.

[ QUOTE ]
OP's line is nice. I make a blocking bet on the river and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want to wait until the scare card comes to open the betting? This hand is strongest on the flop and does not figure to improve. Villian's hand does figure to improve, and in this case, very well may have.

Marlow

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

You can always cook up scenarios where any line is bad. The question is just to pick the one that has the highest EV. Against most opponents, calling big raises with one pair after showing aggression is probably not +EV. If you have a specific read that against a specific opponent it is, then by all means do so. But when I, and I'm guessing OP as well, check/call flop and lead turn a lot of the time I am not folding to a raise. Because a lot of the time I have a set or top two pair here. So it is not likely that villain thinks this line looks weak and that he can knock us off our hand. So if he is raising here, it is probably for value and not a bluff. So we should fold.

I think leading the flop would be okay, but it looks more bluffy and so will often elicit non-straightforward raises responses from our opponents. And if they have nothing and choose not to bluff, they will often fold. Whereas if we had checked, they would often bet and we would get more value. Our goal with TPTK type hands should be to see showdown cheaply. OP's line does this well, IMO.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

I think that everything is fine up to the river and that CR flop is not good vs unknown utg. I think the turn block bet on blank is a good play.

If you check the river and the guy bets like 350 or so, can you call it? some people are saying call pot sized bet, i think thats troublesome, but on the other hand, a 1/2-2/3 pot sized bet looks like a value bet and you basically only beat a bluff since KQ isnt betting that river. do people usually try to bluff the obvious straight card? Its interesting though because if the guy did have KJ, but the flush card came on the river and you checked the river (?) and he makes a pot sized bet you basically cant call without the A of trump.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

You aren't raising to find out where you're at. This is what he's LOL'ing at.

If you raise the flop (vs. random opponent at this level) you're doing it to win the pot right away and avoid making tough and potentially -EV decisions on the later, more expensive streets. This is a great idea in theory, but there are many problems. For instance, the preflop raising range of a random opponent in the Party 5/10nl game includes an appreciable % of hands you're way behind on this flop and an even larger % of hands you're ahead of that will call any reasonable check-raise you can make. Unbeknownst to them, their call is correct since they have enough stealing equity ('18 scare cards') in addition to their pot equity/implied odds (are you always check-folding jacks and kings? tens? nines?) to make the call profitable.

Summarizing briefly: you will not win the pot a significant % of the time on the flop; when behind you lose more money; when ahead, you extract relatively little additional value from worse hands compared to what you give up by allowing them to either win more off of you by improving or by stealing the pot if an unfriendly card comes off.

There's some other stuff, but that is the gist.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

Check-fold. No money should go in on this river vs. a random opponent. KQ is (oops) the only two hands you're ahead of willing to call a bet, but they will sometimes fold and they don't represent 50%+ of the hand range that calls the bet (prob like 25%). Worse hands don't bet the river very often, especially in pots of this size. You can muck. Folding to river value bets saves big money.

Rest of hand is good.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

interesting that you say this, cant he ever bluff clubs here? His turn play is consistent with a draw, but of course he is representing KJ if he bets.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

This is a well though out and crafted response. This is why I come here. I really appreciate the effort as this will make me a better player.

As for explaining what greg nice was referring to, I think that he needs to be responsible for his own childish and antisocial bullshit.

When this forum is good, it's amazing, when it's bad, it's a total waste of time and a joke.

Thanks again, VanVeen

Marlow

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

I realize that you have no reads but if you think KJ is likely to be in his range of UTG raising hands, then I think you should reraise preflop.

as played, I like a blocker on the river better because there is no way he can remove KJ from your range of hands and there are lots of hands he will have trouble raising your blocking bet with on the river. at the same time, hands like KQ might be convinced to call your river bet thinking you are on a missed club draw and because its laying him such good odds as your blocking bet is likely 1/2 pot or so.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, and there's not a damned thing wrong with my suggestion. If you disagree, let's hear it.


[/ QUOTE ]

well the others already told you why your suggestion was retarded. if i dont have time to type out a full response, i will abbreviate so people dont follow bad advice.

[ QUOTE ]


When this forum is good, it's amazing, when it's bad, it's a total waste of time and a joke.


[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. perhaps you should sit back and read the good like many of us, and cease contributing to the bad. dont know why im even responding to this forum jabber.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

I went through and looked at the last 10 posts of yours, and about 8 of them were just short comments with no content whatsoever. Most of those were totally inappropriate and disrespectful. Maybe you are smart enough to understand why you are a total jerk. I'm not sure. In any case:

[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

OKAY so here's what REALLY happened.

I was the villain in this hand, and the "hero" was INcinerate, pretty decent skilled TAG player. He doesn't have a read on me.

I had A9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and bet 340 on the river trying to sell a K high straight. He thought for 15 secs and then called at the end, and I felt like I had made a mistake. I have chatted with some people about this and they have suggested I raise the turn on a bluff, or just give up on the river, but I thought I could make him fold a Q (which is what I read him for). Too bad. Maybe 340 wasn't enough to bet, but some of you guys are saying call potsized river bets. I dont know what's with that, I don't think its good vs unknown (although I would rarely bet the pot on the river vs an opponent like this, although he does not know that). On the other hand, VanVeen, who's play I respect, says check fold, hmm. It's hard to say. Thanks for all of your comments. I do think INcinerate played the hand well though, and I arguably misplayed the turn.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

And what is your response to a half pot bet from him on the river? What if you had KQ?

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
And what is your response to a half pot bet from him on the river? What if you had KQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably fold rather than bluffraise allin, but you never know. KQ I think has to be folded too vs this player, but against others I might sway towards calling.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And what is your response to a half pot bet from him on the river? What if you had KQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably fold rather than bluffraise allin, but you never know. KQ I think has to be folded too vs this player, but against others I might sway towards calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. That is in keeping with my view that a blocking bet would be better here than checking and calling up to a pot bet. More likely to get the blocking bet called by a worse hand and less likely for us to hemmorhage money when we're behind.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

I think so too.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

I think if I had A9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] here, I'd raise the turn stop'n go for sure. And maybe fire again on the river depending on what card hits and how fast he called.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

Interesting thread. I'm getting back into NL cash games after playing sit and goes for a while. At first I got killed defending blinds with too many marginal hands.

I would give some due consideration to folding preflop. Partly because I am not confident in playing AQ OOP to a UTG raiser.

I think this hand is a great example of the problems that can come. The BB got a pretty good flop and still had a very difficult time playing the hand.

If I did play this hand PF, I would probably check-call to the river. If the board got too scary I would fold.

Paul

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

anybody want to comment on a possible preflop reraise line?

I figure 2/3 of the time, you don't flop the Q or A and you have to check fold to UTG raiser's continuation bet. the times you flop the A or Q, you are still scared to play if you just called preflop.

whereas if you reraise, there is a significant amount of time you take it down right there especially if you haven't been preflop reraising very much and UTG raiser's preflop raise range is wide. if UTG happens to have say KK, I think the default play at this level is to not 3 bet and if you flop the Q, its very hard for KK to call your flop bet, flopping the A goes without saying.

I just feel that smoothcalling preflop basically only gain you any money if you flop a pair and villain does not move you off of it, which out of position, is hard to do.

Therefore, I think if you know villain's UTG raise range is wide, you should either reraise or fold preflop with AQ.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

u post good hands. thank you.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

I don't like re-raising here unless you know the preflop raiser is a maniac and you are willing to get it all in either preflop or with just TPTK postflop. Against a sane player, you just have to realise that he is going to be much more likely to win the pot due to his position than you are and therefore you don't want to build the pot preflop. I like to just call and then try to win a small pot if I flop TPTK and give up fairly easily with ace high as a SOP. Again, if against an especially aggro opponent, it all changes.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
No read on UTG.

UTG raises to 35, folded to you in the bb with AQ

You call.

Flop is QT2, two . You check, he bets 70, and you call.

Turn is the 4o. Pot is 213. You lead for 125. He calls.

Pot is about 470 now. River 9o which is kind of scary bc it could have made the straight.

What's your play.

If you check, how much can you call?

Oh effective stacks 1k

Edited by Prevaricator (09/25/05 08:57 PM) [/qoute]



[ QUOTE ]
OKAY so here's what REALLY happened.

I was the villain in this hand, and the "hero" was INcinerate, pretty decent skilled TAG player. He doesn't have a read on me.

I had A9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and bet 340 on the river trying to sell a K high straight. He thought for 15 secs and then called at the end, and I felt like I had made a mistake. I have chatted with some people about this and they have suggested I raise the turn on a bluff, or just give up on the river, but I thought I could make him fold a Q (which is what I read him for). Too bad. Maybe 340 wasn't enough to bet, but some of you guys are saying call potsized river bets. I dont know what's with that, I don't think its good vs unknown (although I would rarely bet the pot on the river vs an opponent like this, although he does not know that). On the other hand, VanVeen, who's play I respect, says check fold, hmm. It's hard to say. Thanks for all of your comments. I do think INcinerate played the hand well though, and I arguably misplayed the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

So HE had the AQo, right? I think you're contadicting yourself here, but I'm not sure. How is it that him calling $340 on the river is playing it well but us suggesting that you can call up to a pot-sized bet is not playing it well? I am so confused...

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

well he made the read. Who knows what he would have done had i bet the pot though. there is a lot of uncertainty though thats my point.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
anybody want to comment on a possible preflop reraise line?

I figure 2/3 of the time, you don't flop the Q or A and you have to check fold to UTG raiser's continuation bet. the times you flop the A or Q, you are still scared to play if you just called preflop.

whereas if you reraise, there is a significant amount of time you take it down right there especially if you haven't been preflop reraising very much and UTG raiser's preflop raise range is wide. if UTG happens to have say KK, I think the default play at this level is to not 3 bet and if you flop the Q, its very hard for KK to call your flop bet, flopping the A goes without saying.

I just feel that smoothcalling preflop basically only gain you any money if you flop a pair and villain does not move you off of it, which out of position, is hard to do.

Therefore, I think if you know villain's UTG raise range is wide, you should either reraise or fold preflop with AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like calling preflop and leading some flops, and check/calling some flops where it is likely that he didn't hit the flop either.

Re: AQ 5/10 6max hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
well he made the read. Who knows what he would have done had i bet the pot though. there is a lot of uncertainty though thats my point.

[/ QUOTE ]
Or what if you overbet the pot? The people who will call up to pot-sized, don't you think overbetting river after you check looks a lot like a steal? If he had a real hand, wouldn't he value bet it? After all, your river checks seems weak. Why would he expect you to call an overbet? I just think checking here puts you into a potentially expensive guessing situation. If you have a good read on the opponent and are confident that you will guess correctly often enough to make it profitable, go for it. But against an unknown, seems like blocking bet is the safe way to go...