KK correct?
 

500 max buy 5-10 blinds, good game. im big stack with about $3000, no one else is close. 6 or 7 handed, i have KK utg and limp, next guy limps, next guy who has been raising a lot makes it $40, button who is a fish cold calls, sb and bb fold, i make it $300 straight, only preflop raiser calls. he auto-calls. he has $700 left.

the flop is QJ9 rainbow. i put him all in.

nothing else i can do right?

Re: KK correct?
 

I'd just make your standard open pre-flop.

Re: KK correct?
 

I dont like it at all...

Re: KK correct?
 

Tough spot, but he has KK/AQ/AK/TT often enough here to make it the only thing you can do.

Re: KK correct?
 

> nothing else i can do right?

A few observations:

- Your preflop reraise was really big.

- I think post-flop play is entirely player dependent. Against any decent player, you're beaten.

- You play with an unusually big stack for a limit player starting a new game.

Re: KK correct?
 

I'd agree with most of these as well. The last one isn't his fault though...He seems to be doing that thing called winning if he has a 3k stack in a $500 max buyin game.

Rather just use the std open here w/KK as well.

Re: KK correct?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tough spot, but he has KK/AQ/AK/TT often enough here to make it the only thing you can do.

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AQ/TT and prob. AK are hitting the muck...

Only hand I see him beating is AK(and just calling to see a flop for 300 is terrible) and maybe split if he has KK. Looks like QQ though and he just cant fold it preflop, most likely AA.

Re: KK correct?
 

"I'd just make your standard open pre-flop."

a couple things:

i had been open raising almost nothing in this game for a variety of reasons. mainly because it was a really loose limpy game.

i felt there was too much value in letting the guy who raising 70% plus preflop raise for me and then pounce.

oh one more thing: the pot was reraised preflop about 2-3 times in about 4-5 hours. so i couldnt count on anyone else repopping preflop.

some questions
 

"You play with an unusually big stack for a limit player starting a new game."

i was winning. it's a 500 max buy in.

"Against any decent player, you're beaten."

for one thing he's not decent, just to clarify. for another i realised i was probably beaten but had 6 outs.

6 outs twice + some chance my hand is good + no way i want to let him bet some whack hand he thinks is best that's not and make me fold = seemed like a bet all in to me.

if i check, do i fold to a $700 bet? to a $400 bet? what?

Re: some questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You play with an unusually big stack for a limit player starting a new game."

i was winning. it's a 500 max buy in.

"Against any decent player, you're beaten."

for one thing he's not decent, just to clarify. for another i realised i was probably beaten but had 6 outs.

6 outs twice + some chance my hand is good + no way i want to let him bet some whack hand he thinks is best that's not and make me fold = seemed like a bet all in to me.

if i check, do i fold to a $700 bet? to a $400 bet? what?

[/ QUOTE ]

mike, every part of your thought process concerning the hand is good except one. (the bold part) ML4L (the other mike) wrote a post a few months ago detailing someone who was afraid to check (and therby give up the pot) on the turn, and...

well...

Just because you check and let someone bet doesnt mean you have to fold! In fact, if you are going to play this hand to the end, (which I think is fine, given how much went in preflop + chance your read is off [of being behind]) you SHOULD check and let any worse hands bet. If you are going to lose to everything that can beat KK, let the hands that have no chance or a weak-ish draw etc. (underpairs, whatever) lead out or bluff at the pot. It's a little extra EV.

Re: some questions
 

"let the hands that have no chance or a weak-ish draw etc. (underpairs, whatever) lead out or bluff at the pot. It's a little extra EV."

but this is not online. i cant be sure the guy will bet for me. he might check with AK or 66 or whatever and i especially dont want him to check AK here because he has a 7 outer!

Re: some questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
"let the hands that have no chance or a weak-ish draw etc. (underpairs, whatever) lead out or bluff at the pot. It's a little extra EV."

but this is not online. i cant be sure the guy will bet for me. he might check with AK or 66 or whatever and i especially dont want him to check AK here because he has a 7 outer!

[/ QUOTE ]

then dont bet all in. bet enough to price out a 7 outer. (obviously you're committed regardless)

also, i wouldn't be (especially live) afraid of this flop going check/check. if you check most people will "jump" on the weakness and make some kind of bet. maybe the west coast games are different though from east coast. (live 5/5 that is)

Re: some questions
 

"maybe the west coast games are different though from east coast."

if by "west coast" you mean southern california (not SF bay), and by "different" you mean people play more horridly than you would ever imagine possible, then yes youve got it right.

result
 

well anyway i pushed even though i didnt like the flop but i felt the pot was too big to do anything else and he didnt have enough for me to do anything else. if he had $1500-2000 or more i wouldve had to have a different plan. i have no idea what that plan wouldve been of course...

anyway he had JJ for a set and i turned a K for the winner and rivered a K just to rub it in.

anyway i think his call preflop of my $300 overbet is comedy.

Re: some questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
"maybe the west coast games are different though from east coast."

if by "west coast" you mean southern california (not SF bay), and by "different" you mean people play more horridly than you would ever imagine possible, then yes youve got it right.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha no way man east coast are way worse!!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I meant people putting 300 in preflop w/ something then (even 3 overcards to something like 88) not making some kind of (irreverant) stab at the pot. general aggression level even for the fish, I mean.

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
anyway i think his call preflop of my $300 overbet is comedy.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was thinking your bet and his call were horrible/comedy

after your call of his raise, there's what.... 105 in pot.. not a fan of this play, but i do like the push on the flop

i have lost too much giving free cards, you're calling his all in anyway, so i'd rather apply pressure than have it applied. i'm sure there are a lot of people here that will disagree, but i generally like a bet rather than call style in "most" cases

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
if he had $1500-2000 or more i wouldve had to have a different plan. i have no idea what that plan wouldve been of course...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for starters, are you doing the same thing preflop if villain has 2k behind him?

Personally I think this scenario is more discussion-worthy, preflop and on the flop.

Re: result
 

"Well, for starters, are you doing the same thing preflop if villain has 2k behind him?"

probably. what would you do if he had me covered let's say 3k?

Re: KK correct?
 

The limp-raise looks good because of stacksizes and image of table.

You're commited after the flop so an all-in bet is in order imo.

Re: result
 

With stacks of 2k-3k I think it's better to open with a normal raise because the limp-reraise gives tha hand away and you're out of position with much money left to bet.

Re: KK correct?
 

I like the way you played this a lot. Against fish who won't fold things, a limp-reraise overbet is great preflop - this is how you beat the lower games online w/ 100-200 BBs (sounds about the same skill level). People who say this is bad don't play with horrible players enough.

If he had 2-3k more, then I agree a limp-reraise is probably not worth it because hiding information is much more +EV - especially if he's good.