50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

As far as I can tell opponent is a good tricky aggressive opponent, he doesn't seem loose.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $100 BB (6 handed) converter

BB ($13128)
UTG ($15420.50)
MP ($2944)
Hero ($15647)
Button ($17418.50)
SB ($10044)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $100, Button calls $100, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($400) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1300</font>, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls $1000.

Turn: ($3000) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $1500</font>, Hero calls $1500.

River: ($6000) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

Would he play 77 this way. On that flop? He's probably got something like KJ or KQ. I lead river for 3500.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

I don't play this high or this deep, but I think the only hands that beat you are 77 and possibly J10. I would think he would raise w/ any of the pp's up there including 77, but you said he is tricky so you never know. I would raise somewhere in the neighborhood of 3k more on the turn to find out where he is at.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

What's the reasoning on not getting more in on the turn?

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

I don't like your play this far in the hand, not raising turn or river.

But with this line so far I guess C/R river is a good play.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

JT given the flop action? I don't think so.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

This isn't my game, but his hand on that flop is exactly a king or 77 and the turn looks like a 'hmm, that card sucks so I'm shutting down if he calls' bet.

I think this is a river lead for whatever a decent king will call (3K?)...but the problem is 77 will always raise the river but KQ often will as well. I'd probably figure it out when I got there.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

lead river for 4000... he either has two pair or 777 but 2 pair is more likely... or he hasone pair, and then i don't think he pays. i dont think i'm getting away if he raises all in though, given how aggro this game typically is. i don't love a c/r as a half pot bet on turn isn't a sure sign that he will value bet the river.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

if u lead for 2/3pot no way in hell KQ raises. KQ makes a crying call. are you crazy????

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

I think this is a flop you'll see 77 slow played more often and worrying about it is going to be counterproductive. Once you've called that flop raise and the turn, many hands will now shut down especially with that turn Ace. I don't mind your play on either of those streets as I think nearly everything will fire a continuation raise there and shoving on the turn seems like it's asking for limited two pair hands (given this board) or 77 to crush you while you should still be able to get some value on the river versus the more common weaker hands.

This river looks like one that needs a bet.. Fire something he'll think about calling with a solid piece of the flop like a good K, and don't allow him the free showdown I'd expect him to take.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

Hi Bruiser,

Why no pf raise? I think there are some good reasons to limp (though I nearly always raise in that spot), but I'd like to hear yours.

I like the flop play. On the turn, it's hard to say what he has, since the drawless board makes a 1/2 pot bet fine with any strength hand. I think he has either a King or 2 pair that's a little worried. I think 77 tends to just call on the flop, but who really knows without knowing the player/game dynamics? Also, would he ever overlimp with AA after your limp? This would be a very strange play, unless the blinds had a penchant for trying to steal in these spots. What I'm saying is that his hand looks good, but slightly weaker than a set, on the flop. I'm torn between betting out 3000 and c/r'ing on the river. 3000 looks weird, and probably doesn't slow down a set, but it also seems like that river card is not a good one for a flopped 2 pair (so he might check behind). Then again, KQ is reasonable for him to have here, and that hand will probably bet the river.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

why does no one think he could limp on the button with K7s.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

Checkraise the turn.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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Checkraise the turn.

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It seems that checkraising the turn is virtually pointless. I can't see one hand that he could have that will stick in a bunch of money on the turn that Bruiser is beating. He virtually can't have AK, Kx will fold to the c/r, and 77 will just get all the money in. K7s is the only possible hand that c/r turn makes sense. Would you care to elaborate on this in case I'm missing something here?

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
lead river for 4000... he either has two pair or 777 but 2 pair is more likely... or he hasone pair, and then i don't think he pays. i dont think i'm getting away if he raises all in though, given how aggro this game typically is.

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if u lead for 2/3pot no way in hell KQ raises. KQ makes a crying call. are you crazy????

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If you believe KQ can't raise here, why would you call if button raises all-in? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Doesn't this mean you think button must have his set?

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

because i'm a fish... i also didn't see stack sizes and i assumed 100 BB's but now looking at them i think if he pushes you can fold.... but only when you bet a sizeable chunk on the river, like 2/3, that way he can't value raise 2 pair. he can't have a missed draw here, unless he's a crazy mofo with 45, lol, so if he pushes after a 2/3 pot bet on riv i think you can fold.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

A3, A7, K3, K7. Suspicious decent Ace might call one time if you checkraise medium. Flush draw can call as well.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

Interesting that he'd limp after you on the button. what is his range here?

that turn has gotta be a lead or a c'r. if he straight moves in on the turn thats a little easier than trying tod ecide between maximizing value and saving money if behind.

my question is why do you fear the bigger set so much? wouldn't he at least raise AA/KK/QQ to 350 or so?

and wouldn't he be more likely to limp w/ KQ/AQ/AK/77 some of the time here?

the main problem here is if he does have the latter he calls and the former he puts you in (except 77, which raises as well)

tough spot but id like to see another 3 or 4k in the pot somewhere, your call where.

Barron

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

How often is a tricky aggressive but not loose player playing AXo or AXs like that on the button and not raising in the situation?

My guess is he folds or raises most AXo's and limps or raises
w/AXs.

That and the flop play seems less likely for those hands. (Not completely unlikely but definitely less likely)

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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my question is why do you fear the bigger set so much?

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What on earth makes you think he's afraid of a bigger set? Of course Bruiser thinks he is ahead.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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my question is why do you fear the bigger set so much?

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What on earth makes you think he's afraid of a bigger set? Of course Bruiser thinks he is ahead.

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the ace is a great card!! why check call the turn? after villian bets 1300, dont you think a raise is warranted?

if he does call then he should lead the river no?

Barron

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

i think your best hope of making a lot of money on the hand is if you can do something that looks really suspect to him and just hope he goes for it. on this board in a limped pot there is just no way the betting can escalate in a good, normal way when your winning, which i think you generally are.

one example would be to bet out on the turn when the A hits. from his point of view it may look like your just trying to take advantage of a scare card but if he is thinking about the situation at all he should recognize that the A is very unlikely to have helped you.

something else that i sometimes wonder about in hands like this is whether its any good to just reraise the flop. the flop reraise has to look a bit like a resteal here cause why in the world would you be fastplaying a very strong hand on this board heads up? like the turn bet you just have to hope he thinks your full of it and decides to play.

basically, you just have to try to mimic a steal/resteal as best you can and hope he goes for it. often, even when he is suspicious he will just let it go but this seems like about the only way you might convince him to put some real money in with a worse hand.

if you dont feel like you can find anything that is likely enough to make him think your completely out of line playing your hand pretty passively doesnt seem that bad to me. if you play passively i imagine your hand looks a lot like a K to him so if he has a K beat he will probably value bet for you and if he doesnt he probably wont call your bet anyway.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

i dont think its that he thinks the bigger set is the most likely hand for his opponent to have here. at every point in this hand i think bruiser is more likely to be ahead than behind and i suspect he would say the same thing. the possibility of the bigger set still matters a lot though because of how easy it would be in this hand for the betting to go in such a way that almost all the worse hands he wants to play against are shut out.

if aggressive play causes him to win about the same from the hands he is beating but to lose his stack vs a higher set then the possibility of the higher set should cause him to play passively even though its nowhere near his opponents most likely hand. im not saying this is exactly the situation in this hand but this thinking does come into play here.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

I raise most of the time, for the most part I don't like limping preflop, I'm not used to those situations and get outplayed and get trapped when the blinds have trash, just never seems to work well for me. One situation I do like doing it in though is with low pocket pairs with LAGs to act behind which is what hte situation was. So they don't reraise me preflop, and so I don't have to check/fold an ugly flop.

"I think 77 tends to just call on the flop, but who really knows without knowing the player/game dynamics? Also, would he ever overlimp with AA after your limp?"

Maybe I'm off here, I don't think so but I completely disagree with this, which is apparently what everyone says. I think this is exactly how he would play a set of sevens. Limp preflop, and then we have big stacks so he's going to hope for the best and start building a big pot right away. I think it's the right way to play it too.

If I bet the river which I took a long time considering, is it with the intention of inducing a bluff raise from this tricky player this is going to go all the way reprsenting a hand or is it to value bet against a reasonable hand and with the intention of folding if he raises?

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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Checkraise the turn.

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Because if he has a weakish hand and he folds, there probably wasn't any more money going in there anyway, but if he has a strong hand, you will build the pot and get more out of him? Plus since he only bet half-pot, maybe he'll think bruiser is taking advantage of the little weakness he's showing? CR to about 4000-4500?

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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A3, A7, K3, K7. Suspicious decent Ace might call one time if you checkraise medium. Flush draw can call as well.

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"What on earth makes you think he's afraid of a bigger set? Of course Bruiser thinks he is ahead. "

I was afraid of a bigger set why wouldn't you be? We have big stacks, he limps preflop and starts building a big pot right away. This is a classic situation of going broke with bottom set, vs. a good player, out of position on K73 rainbow board.

What could he have, K7 or a bluff or 77. A3 A7 K3 all seem weird because of small hand combos and it's weird that he'd play them that way. 77 makes the most sense, and then K7, and also a bluff seem possible. Your c/r the turn line seems like "okay I have a set, let's play it fast and hope for the best" thinking.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

Also his turn bet size could mean he has a set and is hoping that ace hit me somehow and is inducing action from that or a lower set.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

'something else that i sometimes wonder about in hands like this is whether its any good to just reraise the flop. the flop reraise has to look a bit like a resteal here cause why in the world would you be fastplaying a very strong hand on this board heads up? like the turn bet you just have to hope he thinks your full of it and decides to play.'

yeah i see what you're saying but i've tried it before and it just hasn't worked for me in practice. put yourself in his position, you would need absolute balls of steel to continue playing this after i 3 bet that flop.

'basically, you just have to try to mimic a steal/resteal as best you can and hope he goes for it. often, even when he is suspicious he will just let it go but this seems like about the only way you might convince him to put some real money in with a worse hand.'

this is what i was thinking on the river, make some sort of bet, and hope he shows courage and goes all the way with a bluff. but i decided that putting myself in this position against a good player was the wrong way to go, i don't understand why no one else is afraid of a set of sevens.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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"I think 77 tends to just call on the flop, but who really knows without knowing the player/game dynamics? Also, would he ever overlimp with AA after your limp?"

Maybe I'm off here, I don't think so but I completely disagree with this, which is apparently what everyone says. I think this is exactly how he would play a set of sevens. Limp preflop, and then we have big stacks so he's going to hope for the best and start building a big pot right away. I think it's the right way to play it too.


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you dont think the two players behind him make a call more appealing? i dont think the flop raise rules out 77 by any means but i think your point would be stronger if his play didnt completely shut out the 2 other players in the pot.

how do you interpret the smallish turn bet btw? seems a bit odd, especially coming after the full pot flop raise. one possibility that jumped to mind when i saw the turn bet is a hand like A7 that thought it might be bluffing the flop but basically wanted folks gone but that now thinks its milking a K.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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i dont think its that he thinks the bigger set is the most likely hand for his opponent to have here. at every point in this hand i think bruiser is more likely to be ahead than behind and i suspect he would say the same thing. the possibility of the bigger set still matters a lot though because of how easy it would be in this hand for the betting to go in such a way that almost all the worse hands he wants to play against are shut out.

if aggressive play causes him to win about the same from the hands he is beating but to lose his stack vs a higher set then the possibility of the higher set should cause him to play passively even though its nowhere near his opponents most likely hand. im not saying this is exactly the situation in this hand but this thinking does come into play here.

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thank you for saying it better than i could.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

I'd make it 4500 on the turn. Sets shorthanded are gold. If he pushes, then I decide whether or not he has 77. If he has 77 and calls, that is a pretty sweet line and then I'd think he is better than I gave him credit for.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

'you dont think the two players behind him make a call more appealing? i dont think the flop raise rules out 77 by any means but i think your point would be stronger if his play didnt completely shut out the 2 other players in the pot.'

i really think that this is an aggressive good player, he is going to want to play for big pots with a set of sevens not try and trap a blind for an extra $450 to win a 1k or 2k pot, he has a set and wants to win it all, or at least give himself a shot to which he won't have with these stacks unless he starts building the pot right away.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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Also his turn bet size could mean he has a set and is hoping that ace hit me somehow and is inducing action from that or a lower set.

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why would he think the A hit you? i thought his turn bet made a set less likely. if he is fast playing a set and just hoping to catch you with a hand that can play i dont see why he would slow down like this. i get that people will sometimes try to milk value out of strong hands like this but it didnt seem like that was his flop plan and to start doing that on the turn seems like an odd change.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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i dont think its that he thinks the bigger set is the most likely hand for his opponent to have here. at every point in this hand i think bruiser is more likely to be ahead than behind and i suspect he would say the same thing. the possibility of the bigger set still matters a lot though because of how easy it would be in this hand for the betting to go in such a way that almost all the worse hands he wants to play against are shut out.

if aggressive play causes him to win about the same from the hands he is beating but to lose his stack vs a higher set then the possibility of the higher set should cause him to play passively even though its nowhere near his opponents most likely hand. im not saying this is exactly the situation in this hand but this thinking does come into play here.

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thank you for saying it better than i could.

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yea thats some great reasoning

Barron

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

This sorta looks like a bluff to me-

the flop is as dry as can be, he lays 1300 to win the 700 in the pot. figures blinds cant call w/o waking up with an extremely big hand (as KK would raise out of blinds, so really laying the money they dont have bottom/mid set or k7/k3) and figuring you for a flop steal, it was checked to you, you probably bet a wide range of hands. (hell, he may put you on open limping a small pp, but 66 and under means only 1 pp hit...)

probably going to give up when called thinking you have a big K and not letting go but the ace fits enough of his possible steal flop raising hands to warrant another shell utilizing the scare card. 1500 seems like the perfect bet as it makes you commit ~7k+ to see if he's bluffing at a 3k pot w/ the river to come.

or I could be totally wrong, but if he's a good aggressive opponent this looks like a typical steal board.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

i think i basically agree with you about your fastplay probably just scaring him off. if you do choose to go for a real big pot here i think its important that your plan includes something that he can interpret as you getting way out of line. im not really sure if stacking of, trying to bait him like this, is worthwhile or not but i guess what im saying is if i am stacking off here im making sure the betting includes something like this.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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What could he have, K7 or a bluff or 77. A3 A7 K3 all seem weird because of small hand combos and it's weird that he'd play them that way. 77 makes the most sense, and then K7, and also a bluff seem possible. Your c/r the turn line seems like "okay I have a set, let's play it fast and hope for the best" thinking.

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This is what my rambling was getting at.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

check the river, evaluate after his bet, possibly c/r allin, possibly just call. If you determine that your probably ahead after his bet, c/r allin- even if he is a good thinking player who realizes you have a strong hand to call his raise on a k73 board, he is gonna sit there cursing at his computer wondering what u have to check call turn, and c/r allin the river there (the only possible hand is really 33/kq, and yet im sure this isnt ur standard set line) I think he will try and catch your bluff a decent amount of the time. Also if he full-pots the river, i think you can just call easily. Lastly, if you full pot the river, he may fold KQ, however if you check he may full-pot it with kq hoping you call w/ KJ,k7etc. (or w/e else he thinks you have). If you lead for 4k on this river you're in an extremely ugly spot if he raises


EDIT: also hands of his that dont value bet, were probably not calling much of a bet (in general this isnt true as people like their call button)
Even if you were guaranteed that your hand was always good here, i think checking and calling would be more +EV than any bet.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

i think it is unlikely villian has a set.
the board is so uncoordinated its hard to represent a draw by raising, which is a great way to play sets.

lead river for ~3500.

Re: 50/100 Bottom Set, Unraised Pot
 

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Checkraise the turn.

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I don't understand. I thought your biggest leak was check/raising the turn. And now you advocate it? I liked the reasoning in the leak thread better. Check/raising this turn seems bad. Let's worse hands off too easy.