hand reading exercise #2
 

this is 1/2. assume no reads.

preflop: two limpers (EP and LP), I check my BB

flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2.5 sb)
I bet, EP raises, LP CCs, I 3 bet, EP caps, all call

turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.25 bb)
I bet, EP calls, LP raises, I 3bet, EP calls, LP caps, all call

river: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (19.25 bb)
checked to LP who bets, further action omitted

the focus here is on reading my hand.

here are some questions to consider:
1) flop. do I have a made hand or am I drawing? what possible made hands do I have? what possible drawing hands?
2) turn. I'm still going nuts - did the turn improve my hand? did it make my hand? did it improve a draw?
3) river. did this card scare me? did it improve me? what do you think my action will be?

if you want to take a stab at EP and LP, be my guest. (notice that they switched roles between the flop and the turn)

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

1) flop. do I have a made hand or am I drawing? what possible made hands do I have? what possible drawing hands?
made flush

2) turn. I'm still going nuts - did the turn improve my hand? did it make my hand? did it improve a draw?
better made flush since you're willing to 3-bet

3) river. did this card scare me? did it improve me? what do you think my action will be?
yes it scared you. you thought LP either slowplayed a set on the flop or has JT. i think you're check calling.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

You could be pumping a draw on the flop or a made hand. I think Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 is the most likely after seeing the turn and river. 55 is also an option for you until your check on the river. You don't 3-bet the turn with 2pr unless it's JT, and you wouldn't 3-bet the flop with JT.

LP most likely has JT. I'm not sure about EP.

My thought is that the J on the river scared you. There's no reason for you to check to LP if it helped you. If it improved your hand, (i.e. you have J8, JT, 88, 55) you should bet and hope EP gets trapped between you and LP.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the obvious flushes.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

I've never been any good at this but I'll give it a shot. I can see a range of hands you would have played the flop the way you did. A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x, a weak flush, a set or less likely 2 pair. When you continue your aggression (even when LP comes alive) I lean towards the made flush or a less likely set. I think we can rule out 2 pair. The only non made flush you would continue with is A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 (you have 15 outs) if you're overly aggressive but I don't think it's likely. The fact you checked the river makes me think it's a weak flopped flush. If you had a set (which is now a FH) I think you would have continued betting.

Feel free to tell me where I've completely missed the boat.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

You: 9dTd or 6d7d
LP: J8 or 55 ?

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

*grunch* I'm gonna take a huge guess - you flopped a pretty good sized flush (Q high maybe?). Turn card just helps you build a pot (someone hitting a straight?). River card scares you because full house is a possibility.

EP has a really big diamond (singlular)?
LP has J10? pocket 10s (unlikely, prolly worth a raise)?

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

-blind response-

my first response is that you limped with Ax[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and made your hand. By the way you set up the question though, I'd guess this isn't the case.

this looks like set vs flush on the first two streets, and if it is you can't like that turn card...

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

*grunch*
you either have a made 2nd nut flush on the flop(since you didn't raise 2 limpers preflop its less likely you have the Ace) or you flopped 2 pair (including a jack) and are going for the ck raise on the river (less likely since these guys seem to be willing to pump up the pot and turn 3bet would be spewing).

LP has Qd9?
EP has KJo or QJo or maybe AdJ?

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

EP - A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J/A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8
LP - 88/55
you - 2 ragged diamonds (probably T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or something similar)

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

how can the turn improve your hand, make your hand, or improve a draw?

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
how can the turn improve your hand, make your hand, or improve a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
how can the turn improve your hand, make your hand, or improve a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the answers to this are rather obvious.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how can the turn improve your hand, make your hand, or improve a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the answers to this are rather obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG!!!! So what are they!???!?!??! Answers like this one just get me off tilt.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

Okay so LP has the nut flush and you have some other flush. Subtle bad beat post?? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay so LP has the nut flush and you have some other flush. Subtle bad beat post?? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

good read

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

1) On the flop I'm going with either a made flush or a strong redraw to one...probably A or K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. AJ is a reraise preflop, A8o is a possibility, A5, K8, K5. Or, if you have the made flush, any 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s.

2)But with betting and 3-betting the turn, I'm going to have to give you credit for the actual flush. I don't think you bet/3-bet with a gutshot. (Possibly a gutshot with the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], if you don't have a made flush, that's my 2nd choice.)

3)I don't think you like the river, because if EP was sticking around with his 88 or 55 he just outdrew you. Even LP could have if he was making some kind of silly slowplay with his trips instead of making his gutshot on the turn.

FWIW, that's what I put everyone on. Now to go read the thread...

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay so LP has the nut flush and you have some other flush. Subtle bad beat post?? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

good read

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this is not the most challenging/interesting exercise, but I thought it could be good practice for the newer guys. no?

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how can the turn improve your hand, make your hand, or improve a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the answers to this are rather obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG!!!! So what are they!???!?!??! Answers like this one just get me off tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you really want me to explain how a card can improve your hand?

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay so LP has the nut flush and you have some other flush

[/ QUOTE ]

you think this is my/his only range of hands? I disagree.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

Come on, it was a joke.
I like this sort of exercises a lot and I wish ppl would post more of those.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

assume no reads? what is the context of the game? Did you join the game because it appeared to be loose? This is a stupid excercise because it is so impractical. We have no hero prespective in which to view this hand and no game texture to make educated guesses. Whats my read? EP thinks he is probaly beat, You and LP think you are best. thats all you can take from this hand.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

*grunch*
I put you on the Nut flush. When EP sees you not slowing down on the turn he backs of his 67, 9T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or small set and LP makes his boat on the river (probably JT, he probably raises PP PF).

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

cool.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how can the turn improve your hand, make your hand, or improve a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the answers to this are rather obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't be a dipshit

what hands, other than the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 brought up already, does this offsuit T help that hero goes nuts on the flop with?

p.s. taking into account that a straight is probably no good here anyways

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

Uh, the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 that Numeri mentioned early in the thread. And why don't you think a straight is good at the turn? The other guys in this hand could easily be betting sets here. Not only that, but a straight plus a decent flush draw is much improved over a flush draw.

Re: hand reading exercise #2
 

I see 2 options:

1) You have a made flush (but it's weak) or a set of 5s. Even though the pot is small you want to win it because of this very coordinated flop.

2) You have a strong draw (flush + gutshot, flush + open ended, pair + flush).

Okay, on the turn it looks like EP is waiting for a draw or perhaps he made a set and is a scared passive. LP likes the ten though. It looks like JT, 79, or Q9 to me. You 3 bet here saying you aren't scared of any of that. This looks like a flush again or you have one killer draw and are betting for value. The jack scares you as LP as a good chance of being filled up here.

I'll go with something like 36d.

Now to read on and see how wrong I am.