Preparing for the $10/$20
 

How much more difficult are the 10/20 games compared to 5/10?

Is the increased difficulty due to harder table selection? Greater postflop aggression? Tighter preflop play?

What makes the transition between 5/10 and 10/20, seemingly, the hardest transition of them all? (this is based on the party poker games only).

Now that I have the bankroll, I am looking to move up to the 10/20 soon, and I have taken a couple of one session shots, just to see how comfortable I would feel in the game.

I felt that 10/20 games played pretty much the same as 5/10. The main difference being that I ended up spending more time searching for a decent seat.

If you are in the middle of making the transition from the low to the mid limits like me, what have been your experiances? And what differences have you noted?


Anyway, all opinions are welcome. Thank you in advance.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

I don't know really... but I'd guess that the big differense is that at 10/20, most of the time you have 1-2 very serious poker players sitting at your table. Also the rest of the players are generally better and more aggressive.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

I moved up a couple months ago and have 30k hands at the 10/20. I think the most important difference is that the lags are still too loose, but they play much better postflop and have decent reading skills. They will value bet you more with marginal hands. This makes them frustrating to play against at times.

If you have the bankroll, just play a lot there. You'll get a feel for it eventually. It took me a while, but I think I have at least a decent feel for the game now.

-Craig

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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at 10/20, most of the time you have 1-2 very serious poker players sitting at your table

[/ QUOTE ]

And the 5/10's don't?

The rake increase was the last straw that made me move up to 10/20. I now wish I'd done it sooner, as I've found little difference in opponent quality. Most 5/10's have at most two providers, while the rest are stiffs. Sometimes there is only one provider -- maybe a 50, with five <20 rocks. Sorry, these are not good games. At 10/20 I've actually found slightly more tables with 2+ providers.

There is more aggression and slightly better postflop play.
But if you're playing against a 60, it really doesn't matter if he's Doyle Brunson. Last night, I had a 60+ come after me every time I "stole" from the button -- capping every street. He called my KK on the river -- with an unimproved T9o. Does that strike fear into your heart?

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

$10/20 will test your ability to also handle swings in the thousands of dollars.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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$10/20 will test your ability to also handle swings in the thousands of dollars.

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Quoting for truth. I just had my first $2,000 swing and I probably would have thrown up if I wasn't so overbankrolled for the game.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
$10/20 will test your ability to also handle swings in the thousands of dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention this part as well. Bwahahaha....have fun with that... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

What kind of people are the LAG's in games such as 10/20 and above? Playing down at the micros, I can assume that most are new to the game, or don't really care that much about the money but just enjoy playing, never read anything about strategy and just make it up as they go etc.

When you get to a level like 10/20 or higher, it's tough for me to believe that people just don't care about the money and want to have fun. That is a serious amount of money they are playing with, and they have to realize they are losing it. You said yourself they have decent reading skills, and play alright post flop, so they have to have some knowledge of the game.

So what kind of people actually make up the "bad players" in the higher limits?

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of people are the LAG's in games such as 10/20 and above? Playing down at the micros, I can assume that most are new to the game, or don't really care that much about the money but just enjoy playing, never read anything about strategy and just make it up as they go etc.

When you get to a level like 10/20 or higher, it's tough for me to believe that people just don't care about the money and want to have fun. That is a serious amount of money they are playing with, and they have to realize they are losing it. You said yourself they have decent reading skills, and play alright post flop, so they have to have some knowledge of the game.

So what kind of people actually make up the "bad players" in the higher limits?

[/ QUOTE ]

LAGs that ran hot/ran over the lower limit games.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

I'm kinda in the transition- closer to staying with 10/20 (unless i get a massive beatdown in the near future).

I've been jumping back and forth for several months and I think 5/10 and 10/20 are much differant. 5/10 is a striaht forward ABC poker game. 10/20 is much trickier

Much much more aggression on all streets, especially preflop. In 5.10 your able to see quite a few showdowns for free, I find this very rare in 10/20 games, i.e. its very rare in 5/10 to have to make a decision to call down with high card.

I think the major increase in aggression also leads to high variance-make sure your BR is big enough or your mental game is solid.

it also seems as though there are more "pro wannabes" making plays when they shouldn't which pays you off.

i must say 10/20 is lots fun though. After playing 5/10 for so long,i stopped feeling the the thrill like when I played .5/1 and moved up to 1/2. I lost 100 dollars and was freaked out [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

gl with the move!

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$10/20 will test your ability to also handle swings in the thousands of dollars.

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Quoting for truth. I just had my first $2,000 swing and I probably would have thrown up if I wasn't so overbankrolled for the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, what is "overbankrolled" for this game?

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

have a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat. if you can deal with it, you are ready for the 10.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$10/20 will test your ability to also handle swings in the thousands of dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoting for truth. I just had my first $2,000 swing and I probably would have thrown up if I wasn't so overbankrolled for the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, what is "overbankrolled" for this game?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 15K and feel like that ain't enough. i'd be happy with 25K.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

Your avatar explains a lot how it can feel playing the 10...

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of people are the LAG's in games such as 10/20 and above? Playing down at the micros, I can assume that most are new to the game, or don't really care that much about the money but just enjoy playing, never read anything about strategy and just make it up as they go etc.

When you get to a level like 10/20 or higher, it's tough for me to believe that people just don't care about the money and want to have fun. That is a serious amount of money they are playing with, and they have to realize they are losing it. You said yourself they have decent reading skills, and play alright post flop, so they have to have some knowledge of the game.

So what kind of people actually make up the "bad players" in the higher limits?

[/ QUOTE ]

LAGs that ran hot/ran over the lower limit games.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens often enough to keep a good supply of them up there? I would expect they would go broke pretty fast.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

It´s a big pond...

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
have a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat. if you can deal with it, you are ready for the 10.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the 10 is like having a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat, then god, how do you describe the 20?

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the 10 is like having a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat, then god, how do you describe the 20?

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Dare we even think of how we could describe it? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

How about a kick in the balls followed by a knee to the face combo. Then your 'friend' takes a bat and slams you unconscious. And you don't even want to know in what state you wake up and what things are where...

Just brainstorming here...

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat. if you can deal with it, you are ready for the 10.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the 10 is like having a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat, then god, how do you describe the 20?

[/ QUOTE ]

Move 5 inches lower.

Krishan

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat. if you can deal with it, you are ready for the 10.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the 10 is like having a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat, then god, how do you describe the 20?

[/ QUOTE ]

never played it, and likely never will.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of people are the LAG's in games such as 10/20 and above? Playing down at the micros, I can assume that most are new to the game, or don't really care that much about the money but just enjoy playing, never read anything about strategy and just make it up as they go etc.

When you get to a level like 10/20 or higher, it's tough for me to believe that people just don't care about the money and want to have fun. That is a serious amount of money they are playing with, and they have to realize they are losing it. You said yourself they have decent reading skills, and play alright post flop, so they have to have some knowledge of the game.

So what kind of people actually make up the "bad players" in the higher limits?

[/ QUOTE ]

LAGs that ran hot/ran over the lower limit games.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens often enough to keep a good supply of them up there? I would expect they would go broke pretty fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

nah, they catch on me all the time, which keeps them staked.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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I have 15K and feel like that ain't enough. i'd be happy with 25K.

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That's ridiculous - seriously.


Adam

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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I have 15K and feel like that ain't enough. i'd be happy with 25K.

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That's ridiculous - seriously

Adam

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Meh, I have 30k for the game. I won't step foot into the 20 again until I have 40k.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I have 15K and feel like that ain't enough. i'd be happy with 25K.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's ridiculous - seriously

Adam

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Meh, I have 30k for the game. I won't step foot into the 20 again until I have 40k.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wait, ... are you guy's 100% pro, and could not restart if you busted?


Personally, I keep 500 BB's and feel that's plenty. While I know it's possible to go on a 500 BB downswing, I also know that it's extremely unlikely. Further, after a 300BB downswing, I'd probably drop down to 5/10 to rebuild for a bit.

It's my feeling that a 500 BB downswing is not simply bad luck, but also bad play.


Adam

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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[ QUOTE ]

I have 15K and feel like that ain't enough. i'd be happy with 25K.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's ridiculous - seriously.



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no, it's not. seriously.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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Wait, ... are you guy's 100% pro, and could not restart if you busted?



[/ QUOTE ]

yes. seriously.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Wait, ... are you guy's 100% pro, and could not restart if you busted?



[/ QUOTE ]

yes. seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]


ah. my mistake. sorry.


Adam

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

I have over 20k for this game and wouldn't feel comfortable w/much less than 15. For me it has less to do with being able to take a bad swing and more to do with not being able to handle losing a significant portion of my bankroll in a bad swing. I've had a couple 4k swings and I think I would have wanted to drop down if it meant that I lost 1/3 of my br.

-Craig

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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[ QUOTE ]

Wait, ... are you guy's 100% pro, and could not restart if you busted?



[/ QUOTE ]

yes. seriously.

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The concept of a bankroll doesn't really apply unless you are pro or it is unreplenishable.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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yes. seriously.

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Duck season! seriously.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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Wait, ... are you guy's 100% pro, and could not restart if you busted?



[/ QUOTE ]

yes. seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a moral code that says if you take a hit you can't drop back down?

I'm all for playing where you're comfortable, but a lot of this bankroll requirement stuff feels like it exists in this universe where once we move up we sign a contract that dictates that we can't move back down if we feel like it.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

Moving down and chopping your earn in at least half sucks big time. Once I make a limit "my standard limit", I really hate myself if I start playing below that.

Right now, $10/20 is my standard limit. While I will ocassionally play in the 20 and 30 games, if I play in a 5/10, I would SCKM.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat. if you can deal with it, you are ready for the 10.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the 10 is like having a friend hit you repeatedly in the gut with a baseball bat, then god, how do you describe the 20?

[/ QUOTE ]

Move 5 inches lower.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Krishan rules.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
Moving down and chopping your earn in at least half sucks big time. Once I make a limit "my standard limit", I really hate myself if I start playing below that.

Right now, $10/20 is my standard limit. While I will ocassionally play in the 20 and 30 games, if I play in a 5/10, I would SCKM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the assumption I'm making is that the reason you're moving down is that your "earn" (ignoring rakeback) is in the negative.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Wait, ... are you guy's 100% pro, and could not restart if you busted?



[/ QUOTE ]

yes. seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a moral code that says if you take a hit you can't drop back down?

I'm all for playing where you're comfortable, but a lot of this bankroll requirement stuff feels like it exists in this universe where once we move up we sign a contract that dictates that we can't move back down if we feel like it.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you share my thoughts on this issue.


Firistly, if I was to lose $6000 at $10/$20, I'd want to move down for a bit - to rebuild my bankroll, confidence, and psychological status.

Secondly, *FOR SOME* it seems that retaining an extra $10K is a bit of an opportunity cost for other stable investment options.


Adam

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

I wouldn't have made a limit "my regular limit" unless I was comfortable enough that I'm a long term winner. Even if my short term earn is negative because I'm running bad, I feel confident, that I'm still earning much more at the $10/20 long term than the $5/10.

So, yes, my short-term earn may be negative... but I know I'm beating the $10/20 for a good clip and there's no reason to step back in a downswing except to cut my "theoretical earn" in half.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have made a limit "my regular limit" unless I was comfortable enough that I'm a long term winner. Even if my short term earn is negative because I'm running bad, I feel confident, that I'm still earning much more at the $10/20 long term than the $5/10.

So, yes, my short-term earn may be negative... but I know I'm beating the $10/20 for a good clip and there's no reason to step back in a downswing except to cut my "theoretical earn" in half.

[/ QUOTE ]


This assumes you're not tilting, not affected psychologically by the swings, and still maintaining proper aggression .... yadda.


Adam

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

Well, at some point you have to step down to avoid variance just busting you, if you're in bob's spot of living off your roll. I do get your point, I'm not saying step down at the first sign of evil, and I know from personal experience how demoralizing it can be.

(there's a side argument about how defining yourself by the limit you play and staying fixed within that is goofy, but it's a argument that Ray Zee has made way better than I ever could).

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

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$10/20 will test your ability to also handle swings in the thousands of dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really the most important point. I know adam disagrees, but I would seriously not play the 10 without a bankroll of at least $20k.

Re: Preparing for the $10/$20
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, at some point you have to step down to avoid variance just busting you, if you're in bob's spot of living off your roll.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not a pro and I have almost $20,000 for $10/20 6-max, but i'd hope a professional would have at least that, having any less may be asking for trouble.