enternal hell bothers me
 

Hey all. New to this part of two plus two, but I have a concept that has been bothering me for a long time. First of all, I am a blonde haired, blue eyed American, raised hindu (Hare Krishna) for those of you who know a little about hinduism. Granted, my views on religion are going to be different than the norm because of this, but I think they are still with merit.

I have one main contention with Christianity, and that is etneral hell. One of the main points of Christianity is that God is benenifient. I believe this too. However, if God is beneficient, why does he ban us to hell eternally?

Human beings are mortal in nature. Our soul may be immortal, but our existence on this Earth is surely only temporary. Therefore, why would God send us to eternal hell for mistakes we make in our mortal lives. It simply does not make sense to me. If this is the case, than God cannot be beneficient. Do any Christians have anything to say about this? I think the idea of eternal hell is extremely nonsensical and goes against everything Christianity should stand for (Love, caring, forgiveness, righteouness, etc)

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

Most Christians don't have the same interpretation of God as you do. Some Christians think of God as a parent, always watching their actions and discriminating against their good and bad actions/thoughts. These themes get echoed in society, Santa Clause is an example, 'he knows if you've been bad or good'. These dualistic themes reinforce the notion of bad and good which naturally aid in creating the web of delusions that some Christians refer to as 'self'. This obviously has an affect on what they view as God because they don't see God inside of them. They think of God as 'out there' looking down on them instead of inside and all around them. This is only some Christians, but I think these differing views of God is what creates a difference in understanding. An eternal view of 'right and wrong' or dualistic thinking would be eternal heaven and eternal hell so it's natural for a dualistic society to interpret God's 'parenting' as such.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

Christianity is a religion based on fear, as is Islamism a religion based on hatred.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Christianity is a religion based on fear, as is Islamism a religion based on hatred.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Islam is a religion based on a Semitic inferiority complex. (IMHO)

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

Both of you who were bashing other religions are extremely ignorant. Neither religion is one thing or another, it is the sum of those individuals who believe in it. Some Christians do HORRIBLE things, including killing Jews. Stop being so short sighted and thinking your religion is the best. It isnt.

Now, as for my post, any takers on eternal hell being in direct conflict with a beneficient God. This is a legitmate logical and philosophical contradiction that I would like to see resolved.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

I address this question to religious people by using their words: If god loves me, as you say he does, then why would he condemn me to eternal hell for making an error in my mortal life?
And their answer is always the same: God put Jesus on earth to suffer and die for our sins so that we could have faith and get into heaven.
And then I always argue that I see no proof of Jesus being the son of god or anything more than a carpenter.
And their response is that the Bible states that ...
And this is where I get frustrated and tell them that it has only been humans who wrote and told me to read the bible. No angels or nephilim or holy being told me to follow the bible. So how can I be sent to eternal hell, by a god who loves me, for not believing other humans?
"But the bible ..." ad nauseam [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

When most of us think of Hell, we have pictures or fire and a man-like creature, the Devil with horns and the like.

If you look at Heaven and Hell only conceptually I think might be easier to look at it this way:

Heaven is being with God. Hell is not being with God.

Some think of Hell as simply the absence of God in the after life; not such much as torture and eternal fires.

Not sure if that helps you or not.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Both of you who were bashing other religions are extremely ignorant. Neither religion is one thing or another, it is the sum of those individuals who believe in it. Some Christians do HORRIBLE things, including killing Jews. Stop being so short sighted and thinking your religion is the best. It isnt.

Now, as for my post, any takers on eternal hell being in direct conflict with a beneficient God. This is a legitmate logical and philosophical contradiction that I would like to see resolved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never heard any non-faith based way of justifying an infinite punishment for a finite crime. I think it can't be done.

chez

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
I address this question to religious people by using their words: If god loves me, as you say he does, then why would he condemn me to eternal hell for making an error in my mortal life?
And their answer is always the same: God put Jesus on earth to suffer and die for our sins so that we could have faith and get into heaven.
And then I always argue that I see no proof of Jesus being the son of god or anything more than a carpenter.
And their response is that the Bible states that ...
And this is where I get frustrated and tell them that it has only been humans who wrote and told me to read the bible. No angels or nephilim or holy being told me to follow the bible. So how can I be sent to eternal hell, by a god who loves me, for not believing other humans?
"But the bible ..." ad nauseam [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus was just a man, but he lived in a way that was directly from his source which was his awareness or aliveness. People saw the God in him because he lived directly from his natural mind. That is why there is that saying, 'the church of heaven is inside you and all around you' The interpretation of God or, what Jesus acted from is interpreted in many ways but it seems obvious he was acting from the God nature that is inherent in everyone.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

"Heaven is being with God. Hell is not being with God."

That makes a lot more sense, and if Christians would unite in this interpretation as being a reasonable one, they would be taken a lot more seriously.

So I ask you what percent of studious Christians accept this as a reasonable interpretation? (I say "studious" because ironically the less studious ones, religion wise, I'm guessing, are more apt to accept this interpretation.)

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

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"Heaven is being with God. Hell is not being with God."



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That sums it up quite well actually.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

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Both of you who were bashing other religions are extremely ignorant.

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Explain.

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Neither religion is one thing or another, it is the sum of those individuals who believe in it.

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I judge a religion on it's founder, its God(s), and it's text.

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Some Christians do HORRIBLE things, including killing Jews.

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God not Jews, anybody but Jews. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Stop being so short sighted and thinking your religion is the best. It isnt.

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Polytheism strikes again! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Joking,
SDM

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

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'the church of heaven is inside you and all around you'

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Isn't this from the movie Stigmata and isn't merely a "saying". This quote came from a secret gospel of christ that was supposedley in Christ's own language but "the Catholic Religion Rejects". Please inform me, because it interests me greatly. Where did you hear this alleged "Saying"?

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
'the church of heaven is inside you and all around you'

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this from the movie Stigmata and isn't merely a "saying". This quote came from a secret gospel of christ that was supposedley in Christ's own language but "the Catholic Religion Rejects". Please inform me, because it interests me greatly. Where did you hear this alleged "Saying"?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's from the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

That's a good question. RJT is obviosly paraphrasing, but this is basically what it says in the Bible. So I don't think it's that rare of a view.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

We have come to have such an innocent victim mentality. I realize that I'm going to throw gas on some fires here but, it's true. There used to be a time when most people had a fear (not physical but respestful fear) and reverence for God and His judgement. Now everyone has become so "let's just do what feels right", and who cares about the rest.

What alot of people forget is God doesn't want to send anyone to hell. He wants them all to find a relationship with Christ, repent and spend eternity with Him.

We will be judged-unfortunate for some but true nonetheless. The good news is we can all be saved by God's grace, and mercy.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

This is the most Christian post that I've seen and of course submitted by a Hindu(Hare Krishna).

The Christ Impulse goes across all differences in mankind and rightly judged it will not be difficult for a Buddhist, Hindu or Jew to see the Being of Christ in the world. This does not mean that these different religious members should immediately join the Presbyterian Church.

The moral tone poem of a man's life is his work and is more difficult in our time than the path of the intellect. We have developed the intellect to an extreme degree(witness the destructive impulses) but morality is slower to manifest. This work is a baby compared to the intellect.

By adding warmth to our thinking this work is accomplished. A "thinking heart" is a reality and necessary for man's furthur progress. The different concepts discussed must be seen in an experiental form--"hell"--what is it's nature and how does this perception relate to man's work? Does the "hell" of present time offer anything or is it merely an epithet used by some(earthly egocentrists) to condemn others, which is a political act.

I personally do not have the answer to "hell" but I believe in eastern thought there is made mention of Kamaloca(Buddhist perhaps but I am sure there is a corresponding Hindu sphere) which can bring one closer to self evident truths.

carlo

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

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Christianity is a religion based on fear, as is Islamism a religion based on hatred.

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No, Islam is a religion based on a Semitic inferiority complex. (IMHO)

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I don't know very much about Islam, but I know enough to say that both of those are pretty stupid and ignorant statements...the latter being slightly less stupid

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

In my opinion, the concept of heaven and hell in religion is nothing more than a manipulative device, which is used to scare people into believing in something.

It's comparable to any other deterrent in our society which is used to modify behavior...

HELL = PAIN

HEAVEN = PLEASURE

It was the same deterrent that was used a couple thousand years ago by the Greeks. If they didn't act accordingly to the majority's views, then the GODS would become upset, and of course cause harm. If they acted accordingly, then the GODS would reward them (create pleasure). But of course their view of multiple GODS is "crazy" (at least we like to think so right...).

What am I saying? I must have been placed here on this planet to satisfy some entity. I'm in a test or something, aren't I? That is why I exist, to please some other entity that I do not understand. I better please that entity by worshiping them, because that is what is wanted.

Seriously though, I don't believe that there is anyway that a GOD placed me on this planet to pass a test so that I could please them; adding a heaven and hell at the finish line (or whatever form of bliss your religion promises)?

These are all man made ideals and principles that were constructed in ways to create order and meaning in life. If there is some higher being out there, I highly doubt it that they would be striving to gain pleasure from my suffering as well as my happiness. If they are, then I would not consider that higher form and more admirable or honorable than any other person in life trying to take advantage of me through some form of manipulation.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Christianity is a religion based on fear, as is Islamism a religion based on hatred.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Islam is a religion based on a Semitic inferiority complex. (IMHO)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know very much about Islam, but I know enough to say that both of those are pretty stupid and ignorant statements...

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Political correctness has alot to answer for. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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the latter being slightly less stupid

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Translation: "Although I disagree with you SDM, your statement does seem likely given such things as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and other examples of the Arab world hating Jews"

?

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Christianity is a religion based on fear, as is Islamism a religion based on hatred.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Islam is a religion based on a Semitic inferiority complex. (IMHO)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know very much about Islam, but I know enough to say that both of those are pretty stupid and ignorant statements...

[/ QUOTE ]

Political correctness has alot to answer for. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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the latter being slightly less stupid

[/ QUOTE ]

Translation: "Although I disagree with you SDM, your statement does seem likely given such things as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and other examples of the Arab world hating Jews"

?

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And there really isn't a response to this last statement without having to go to the politics forum (which I will not do:) ).

craig

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

I think the real important history lies somewhere closer to the 600's AD, round the time of Muhammad's life frankly. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Cheers,
SDM

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

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Both of you who were bashing other religions are extremely ignorant.

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Explain.

--Its a little naive to think that your religion is better than any other religion. I think most of us pretty much agree that whatever God is out there, he is omnipotent and beneficient. Petty squabbling about dogma and scripture surely is not the intent of Religion (of God), it is the intent of men who pervert the Divine Truth. Religion universally preaches forgiveness and loving, and the current state of religious conflict is anything but. So, when you argue about which religion is best and why my God is better, you are only revealing your own ignorance.
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Neither religion is one thing or another, it is the sum of those individuals who believe in it.

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I judge a religion on it's founder, its God(s), and it's text.

--They are all the same. There is ONE God, and each religion is simply differing ideological interpretations of His truth.

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Some Christians do HORRIBLE things, including killing Jews.

[/ QUOTE ]

God not Jews, anybody but Jews. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

--I meant that Christians and Muslims and whoever else can all be equally anti-semitic. It is not the religion at fault but rather the individuals who act on their own (often perverted) beliefs. In fact, Islam is actually one of the most benevolent and forgiving of the Abrahamic religions, it just so happens that some people twist its teachings to suit their own immoral views.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

yep that sums it up

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

David, even if this interpretation is correct, I don't think that resolves the infinite punishment finite crime problem that I am having. Im not too concerned with what hevean and hell are, but rather this sort of disproportionate punishment that is dolled out by a "beneficient" God.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
David, even if this interpretation is correct, I don't think that resolves the infinite punishment finite crime problem that I am having. Im not too concerned with what hevean and hell are, but rather this sort of disproportionate punishment that is dolled out by a "beneficient" God.

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I thought the same thing, it depends on the small print. Is living without god a punishment relative to living with god.

chez

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

the idea of eternal hell is suposed to bother you. Thats why it was thought up by man.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
the idea of eternal hell is suposed to bother you. Thats why it was thought up by man.

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nh

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

wdeadwyler, I had to answer your post in sentances, remember as you read this post, I bring you love. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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--Its a little naive to think that your religion is better than any other religion.

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By "Your" I'm going to take that as "One's" as in "It's a little naive to think one's religion is better than any other religion".

That being said, I believe it's naive if you don't believe that.

If we take 2 Religions: Hinduism, & Sklanskianity, and ask each of them about the world we get this:

Hinduism: It rests on a turtle.
Sklanskianity: It revolves around the sun.

Given what we know now with science, I would have to say Sklanskianity wins this round.

If you take the view that "all religions are equal" etc etc, then you pervert the possible truth. (we don't know what the truth is, we can assume but we don't know)

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I think most of us pretty much agree that whatever God is out there, he is omnipotent and beneficient.

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First of all, just because the masses believe something doesn't mean it's right. People love to put God "into a box" of things he can and can't be, and things he can and can't do.

If there is a God, and we are his creation, and we do not have God's power, then it is safe to assume God is more powerful than us, and likely to be smarter than us.

Therefore we should take care in judging a higher life we cannot even see and putting restrictions on what that higher life can and can't do when in truth if it exists we only have consciousness because of it and one doesn't have to look too far in this world and history to see that many people are often wrong about many things on a daily basis and a wdie range of topics. (academic, personal, and even who they form relationships with - the 'construct' of the person they love of the 'real' person)

I think looking at Judaism and Christianity it appears God is similar to man in some respects, capable of love but also anger. (after all he said King David was a 'man fater his own heart')

But who knows?

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Petty squabbling about dogma and scripture surely is not the intent of Religion (of God), it is the intent of men who pervert the Divine Truth.

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How do you know the intent of God? Have you ever seen God? (and if you did are you sure it was him?)

And what is this Divine Truth?

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Religion universally preaches forgiveness and loving, and the current state of religious conflict is anything but.

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So all religions universally preach forgiveness and loving? Anton LeVay's branch of Satanism doesn't, I guess that must fall outside of your generalization.

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So, when you argue about which religion is best and why my God is better, you are only revealing your own ignorance.

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If there is a God and it wants us to know the truth, we must 'test' with our minds what would seem to be the truth.

Throwing a 'politcally correct' blanket over all religions and saying 'why can't we all get along?' is not the path to truth, but is in fact ignorance. (ie ignorance is bliss)

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--They are all the same. There is ONE God, and each religion is simply differing ideological interpretations of His truth.

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You assume to know many things for certain, including the truth about God.

This instantly makes me skeptical of your claims, pictures you as young and idealistic, and have not done much real research for yourself. (just my view, could be wrong)

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--I meant that Christians and Muslims and whoever else can all be equally anti-semitic. It is not the religion at fault but rather the individuals who act on their own (often perverted) beliefs. In fact, Islam is actually one of the most benevolent and forgiving of the Abrahamic religions, it just so happens that some people twist its teachings to suit their own immoral views.

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You are right, followers can act on their own 'perverted' beliefs, many Christians hundreds of years after Christ died, when the Catholic church began did terrible things, but the apostles and followers of Christ didn't.

Contrast this to Islam where Muhammad raided caravans and when we set up shop at Medina beheaded 800 Jews while their wives watched, well there you have a problem, when the leader and intiial followers are doing this stuff so close to 'divine revelation' and not years later after their follower has gone, one must question if such a 'loving and benevolent' God has really chosen this man to carry his message and be "the greatest prophet". (greater than Jesus or Moses? Doubtful)

Cheers,
SDM

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

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What alot of people forget is God doesn't want to send anyone to hell. He wants them all to find a relationship with Christ, repent and spend eternity with Him.


[/ QUOTE ]

Vito Corleone doesn't want to kill the Band Leader when he puts a gun to his head and tells him "your brains or your signature will be on this contract", he wants him to sign the contract and do business with him, and he's giving the Band Leader a choice.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What alot of people forget is God doesn't want to send anyone to hell. He wants them all to find a relationship with Christ, repent and spend eternity with Him.


[/ QUOTE ]

Vito Corleone doesn't want to kill the Band Leader when he puts a gun to his head and tells him "your brains or your signature will be on this contract", he wants him to sign the contract and do business with him, and he's giving the Band Leader a choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what it's all about isn't it? Who's got power and who doesn't.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What alot of people forget is God doesn't want to send anyone to hell. He wants them all to find a relationship with Christ, repent and spend eternity with Him.


[/ QUOTE ]

Vito Corleone doesn't want to kill the Band Leader when he puts a gun to his head and tells him "your brains or your signature will be on this contract", he wants him to sign the contract and do business with him, and he's giving the Band Leader a choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

But, the bandleader was being unjust in the first place when he didn't sign the Singer to begin with. It was the right thing to do. Morally (don't remember the details) he should have signed the Singer to the deal all along if he was a fair person. Vito just gave him the justice he deserved.

He signed, btw.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

Let me get this straight, you're arguing that in the actual movie Vito was correct to threaten the Band leader's life, or you're trying to point out some difference between the movie situation and God's attitude towards man? If it is the second, please explain that difference.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight, you're arguing that in the actual movie Vito was correct to threaten the Band leader's life, or you're trying to point out some difference between the movie situation and God's attitude towards man? If it is the second, please explain that difference.

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You are going to have to refresh my memory of the details that lead up to Vito making this offer of your signature of your life. As I recall the Bandleader more or less was wrong in the first place by not having signed the Singer to begin with. The Bandleader instigated his own judgment by being unjust to the Singer. I think it was because the Singer was Italian only and therefore the Bandleader had no “moral” grounds to not sign it in the first place.

Vito didn’t make the offer out of greed or similar reasons.

I think the analogy hold to God in the context you are using God - and rendering justice on the “guilty”.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight, you're arguing that in the actual movie Vito was correct to threaten the Band leader's life, or you're trying to point out some difference between the movie situation and God's attitude towards man? If it is the second, please explain that difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are going to have to refresh my memory of the details that lead up to Vito making this offer of your signature of your life. As I recall the Bandleader more or less was wrong in the first place by not having signed the Singer to begin with. The Bandleader instigated his own judgment by being unjust to the Singer. I think it was because the Singer was Italian only and therefore the Bandleader had no “moral” grounds to not sign it in the first place.

Vito didn’t make the offer out of greed or similar reasons.

I think the analogy hold to God in the context you are using God - and rendering justice on the “guilty”.

[/ QUOTE ]


Here is the text from the movie concerning Johnny Fontaine's contract with the band leader:

MICHAEL
Well, when Johnny was first starting out, he was signed to this personal service contract; with a big band leader. And as his career got better and better, he wanted to get out of it.

Now, Johnny is my father's godson. And my father went to see this band leader, and he offered him $10,000 to let Johnny go. But the band leader said no. So the next day, my father went to see him; only this time with Luca Brasi. And within an hour, he signed a release, for a certified check for $1,000.

KAY
How'd he do that?

MICHAEL
My father made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

KAY
What was that?

MICHAEL
Luca Brasi held a gun to his head, and my father assured him that either his brains -- or his signature -- would be on the contract.



Whether the band leader has done anything wrong or not is arguable. Regardless, threatening his life is a rather extreme punishment for holding Johnny Fontaine's career back. It is this reason most viewers consider the Godfather's actions as morally repugnant. I am interested to hear from Jeff V and what he thinks about the analogy between the Godfather and God.

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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What alot of people forget is God doesn't want to send anyone to hell. He wants them all to find a relationship with Christ, repent and spend eternity with Him.


[/ QUOTE ]

Vito Corleone doesn't want to kill the Band Leader when he puts a gun to his head and tells him "your brains or your signature will be on this contract", he wants him to sign the contract and do business with him, and he's giving the Band Leader a choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what it's all about isn't it? Who's got power and who doesn't.

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Thats the point Nitzsche was making. It seems that God no longer affects people's lifes in a direct noticeable way. There are no more "offers we cannot refuse" issued from up high. No wonder many people find fear of God unfounded. They gladly join the chorus singing the new tune that "God is dead". What have you to offer these people who say that the old mobster in the sky is no more?

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

"The Gods are Dead"-to modern humanity, they truly are. The perspective is one of consciousness. The ancient Greek said(I believe Homer) "better a begger on earth than king of the shades".

Humanity, in its evolution, has progressively lost the ability to enter the world of the spirit(the Greek saying is a precursor to the present) but even in Grecian times there was a clarivoyance in which the truths of these regions were known. They had just lost much of the clarity of even earlier times.

This type of understanding of the spirit actually continued to the 16th century when prior to this there were many who were able to connect with the world of the spirit.

Of course the "Age of Reason" and earth bound consciousness began and Man has literally fallen into an inability to touch this world and speculation abounds as the reality of the spirit. Ergo, "the gods are dead".

The connection with this world is real and is the future and present work of Man.It is difficult to concieve the "shades" as the alphabet is not the same.

carlo

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

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What have you to offer these people who say that the old mobster in the sky is no more?

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Buena Suerte

Cheers,
SDM

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

[ QUOTE ]


Buena Suerte

Cheers,
SDM

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SDM,

Hey buddy - good pal.

I was wondering whether your “tu” with the accent was Italian or Spanish. Now I know.
Another "Brick in the Wall." *

*In the very unlikely chance you don’t know this reference, I will tell you if you ask.

Cheers too,

RJT

Re: enternal hell bothers me
 

Hey, why did you delete your post. Well, I already typed my reply so:

SDM,

See, you always read too much into things. (You do that, seriously.) I was merely being friendly in an Eddie Haskell kind of way. Eddie Haskell was a character on the early 1960’s TV show “Leave it to Beaver”. (Perhaps, you might have seen some reruns on TV?) Eddie was a kind of pain-in-the-butt, frequently obnoxious, but no harm intended kind of guy. Now that I have confirmed you are a young pup, I thought you might need a big brother type guy here for a while. You know, to make sure no bullies give you too much hassle. (Even when - often - you deserve it.) My tone was kind of Eddie Haskell, but my motives are more Wally, Beaver’s older brother. You are kind of like “the Beaver”. Beaver was a bratty,dog growling at your feet, albeit sometimes clever kid, who never meant any harm.

Regards,

RJT