My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

This topic is something that Ive been thinking about a lot lately, and since its something of a "hot topic" on the board I thought I'd post my thoughts... Here's my situation.

I'm in my early 20's, married, full-time job, all ready to settle down into the grind of daily life. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I work as a manager at a collections company. I manage a crew of 30+ collectors. I started in this buisness when I was just out of high school and have been there about 5 years. To be honest I have to attribute almost all of the success I have had financially (which isnt a whole lot, but more than most my age), to this company. I now have a wife, mortgage payments, and no college degree.
I've started to realize that I I'm not cut out for collections for the LONG haul. I'm good at it, but I find no prefessional or long term happiness in it. I grow more negative every passing year, and slowly see myself getting stuck in the same type of negative work until I retire.
Collections is a prety easy buisness to move up in, if you put in the time, and can deal with all the corporate BS thats involved. (Not to mention the utter crap I have to deal with from my employees, plus goals, deadlines...AHH!) In about 5 years time I could easily be pulling in about 60-70K, maxing out at about 100K (probably 15 years from now).
Where I live at this kind of money is awesome. The average salary here is 25-30K (what I make now) and the average house isnt much more than 65-80K. Its pretty cheap compared to anywehere else.

Anyways on to my real question. I would really love to get back to my roots that made me happy as a teenager and get away from a lot of this corporate BS. Ive seriously considered quitting my job and going to college for a web/graphic design degree. I used to love drawing and messing with computers before I started working in collections, and have done some HTML work that I enjoyed.
I also have a jazz band that is starting to take off, and allows me to stay social with my busy schedule.
I believe with the proper bankroll (6-8K, which I could easily have on hand within a year), I could make three times what I do now....on paper. I'm a prop so I can pull in REALLY good money from the "r" word, not to mention my overall 2BB/100 WR.
This thought, although ridiculously intoxicating, makes me nervous.

My wife wants a kid soon. A degree would take 4 years to obtain and probably another 6mo. to a year to get set up as a consultant or working for some company from home. (im not going to get a degree just to go back to some office everyday!)

So now im stuck, do I stick it out and continue to do the same crap I do now everyday, and make poker my side job? (which literaly takes ALL of my time, I seriously wake up, work, play poker, sleep, repeat.)
Or so I take the chance? become a full-time student get my degree and finally do the kind of work that I want to do, Along with being a part-time poker pro? Seems like an easy decision, more money, happiness, free time (what's that?) dusting off my PS2 while waiting for a table [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ....but also 5 years of serious real risk of ruin, health insurance, bennies..ect., and the destruction of everything that I worked my ass off for 5 years, as someone with no colege education to get.
The type of buisness Im in you dont just leave to try to play poker professionally. I'd never be welcomed at another agency again. Blackballed.

Can any of you pros shed a little light on some of your prefessional transition periods that might put my mind at ease enough to work through this decision.?
Thanks in advance.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

Seriously, I don't think there is any debate if you have dependents. Once that's the case it becomes a part time thing that only becomes full time after it makes your job's wages look pathetic after an absurd sample size. If you're single and have bills coming to 800 bucks a month do as you please.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Or so I take the chance? become a full-time student get my degree and finally do the kind of work that I want to do, Along with being a part-time poker pro?

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]

The type of buisness Im in you dont just leave to try to play poker professionally. I'd never be welcomed at another agency again. Blackballed.

[/ QUOTE ]


So you would be leaving the job to play poker full-time?
or you would be leaving the job to go to college and play poker part-time?


Also - you would really be black-balled and never able to work at any agency again?
I know nothing of collection agencies but that sounds kind of odd.
Obviously having a back-up plan if it all goes sour is important so you DO want to to be able to go back if possible...so if you're absolutely certain that you would never be able to go back then that REALLY hurts.

Can you take a 3 month leave-of-absence to 'try it out' or something like that?
Is your wife cool with you going back to school and playing poker to fund your way through.


Also - I am assuming that you are long-term winner at this with a significant sample size over several months of play (at least) to back this up. Otherwise, the whole question is moot.


In the meanwhile, you could also continue to do what you are doing for the most part and really work on your poker and build a bigger and more comfortable bankroll for the possibility of doing this in the future.


you're still in undecided and 'not sure what the hell I should do' mode so definitely don't do anything rash anytime soon. Keep doing what you're doing for a few more weeks (at least) while you continue to evaluate the possibilities and discuss things with your wife.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

Out of curiousity, where have I seen your cactus before? My initial thought is some LucasArts game.

I recommend against going pro, at least until you have proven yourself and built up your bankroll. Regarding college, I think you could probably work something out so you could get your degree on the side.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiousity, where have I seen your cactus before?

[/ QUOTE ]
that's Cactuar, a recurring character in the Final Fantasy series.
I think he debuted in FFIII in the desert. He usually ran away before you could kill him, but if you killed him, he gave tons of XP.
Love fighting Cactuar.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiousity, where have I seen your cactus before?

[/ QUOTE ]
that's Cactuar, a recurring character in the Final Fantasy series.
I think he debuted in FFIII in the desert. He usually ran away before you could kill him, but if you killed him, he gave tons of XP.
Love fighting Cactuar.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope FFVII...for any of you oldschool RPG lovers out there. It was in the desert by the ruby weapon, 10,000 needles is a biotch... easiest way to kill one of these (have phoenix summon linked with final attack, use nights of the round, mime, repeat.) Ive beat every facet of FFVII literally... everything. Anyone ever seen Aeris use her lvl. 4 limit break? hahaha! My game play timer is locked at 999:999:999(glitch in first version of FF7) I played it so much in highschool.

Anyways, My plan would be to quit, go to school and play poker full-time for 4 years or so. Then with my degree I can go back to playing part time. Work at home for a few hours, play for a few hours, play with my band, put my wife through school, and start a family. I simply dont want to be confined to a set schedule anymore, and I sure as heck dont want to be spending 50+ hours a week in an office. My house needs work, I need to spend more time with my wife, this just sucks.

And yes in this industry, everyone knows everyone. Everyone in collections could be connected within about 3-4 people (kind of like the kevin bacon game) this guy worked with this guy..ect. when you go to get hired into management at an agency, they all call their old friends and see if they know you, and if their bosses, bosses, bosses know you. If anything bad comes up....no call. Ive met hundreds of people in the buisness and they are all connected somehow to me and my office. As most of you know, Bill collectors are A**holes....but Bill collector managers are major A**holes, and collection company owners are the devil. (Fooseball):)

I really do want to get into graphic/web design...any 2+2'ers in this type of buisness?

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

I can dig quitting a steady job to chase a dream. I don't think that's an ideal stage in life for babies though.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

Quit and go to college. If you actually win at this game, the decision is obvious IMO. You aren't happy. You will be if you take a risk. You are what, 23? You have plenty of time for babies and a family. Don't worry about the collections agencies. I could never get a job working in collections but I think I'll make it okay. I know it seems overwhelming since that's all that you know - but there is more out there. You really only do live once.
-James

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

i just lurk here for the most part but feel compelled to comment on james's response: not only do i agree with him 100% but also think it was one of the most heartfelt and insightful comments i've seen on this site. just my .02

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

I think I have made up my mind to work on getting my bankroll to about 6-7grand and Im just going to do it. By my math Id make around 50K a year at worst just from the "r" so why not... F@ck it. wow it feels good to say that. Anyone working in the graphic/web design field that may want to hire me on in a few years? My band can play for the company picnic. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously thanks guys, I think the decision is obvious. It's just that I spent 5 years since highschool double checking myself and making sure I never said "f@ck it". Its about time I took back control. Everyone lets say it together: "F@CK IT, IM GOING TO PLAY CARDS!"

PS if anyone has any good tips on taxes, getting set up, other pro issues...ect. please PM me. PS anyone think that I should get a couple of hundred dollar coaching sessions in with Joe Tall or someone like that for a "pro approval" before making the plunge?

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

What are your plans for health insurance? Also you're to damn young to be having kids yet. Shouldn't even consider it until you're finished with college and in a job in your field.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

Im under my wifes work insurance.... for now anyways. Plus if we get our own plan pretty soon while we're relatively young, we'll have a much better chance of not being denied coverage.
The only real worry I hav right now is what Im going to do about uncle sam for those 4 years. I have a feeling that the taxes are going to be pretty harsh. Im not sure about Illinois law but gambling anywhere besides a riverboat is illegal here (hasnt been anything said about internet gambling yet) So I dont even know what Im supposed to put on my tax forms. Guess I'll just have to hire an accountant.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

Normally, whenever someone poses the 'should I turn pro' question, my answer is usually yes.


Someone who has few overheads, no dependants, and a poorly paid job, could make a LOT of money right now, in the game of poker.

However, someone who has a decent job, with good wage increasing prospects, a spouse, a mortage, and is looking to start a family soon, would be much better off leaving poker as a part-time income.

If you want to study, go for it. But don't quit your job to study. Study through correspondence courses, or in night school. You don't need to drop everything just to get ahead in life.

You have a mortgage, and you may find that you have a baby on the way (if your wife is adamant about kids). Poker as a job, at that stage in your life, may prove too stressful.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really do want to get into graphic/web design...any 2+2'ers in this type of buisness?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am both a web and graphic designer. I absolutley love it. I work for a resort in Arizona doing all their print ads, internal marketing, menus, signs, ect. and also have my own freelance business on the side. I would say for being 24 I'm doing pretty well, as I dont have a college degree myself. My portfolio and my resume are better than a degree in my opinion. All I can suggest is that if you get into the business word of mouth will be your best friend. Do exceptional work for one person or company and they will pass your name along to the next person that inquires. That is how I got all of my freelance work. Good luck with it and PM me if you have any more questions relating to the field.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

I would recommend more than a $6k bankroll for this.


Yes...you have to pay taxes.
You can just put 'professional gambler' on the tax-form. It is most likely that it doesn't matter what your interpretation of Illinois law is. They are not supposed to be able to use your occupation against you.

You are forced to pay taxes....you also have a 'right' against self-incrimination ("I invoke my 5th amendment rights")...therefore, they can't use your tax-info against you for such a purpose or else it would be contradictory to your 5th amendment rights.


1 - You may want to get Gamblers Guide to Taxes by Walter L. Lewis. It doesn't cover internet-gambling (it's a little dated) but it does cover the differences in professional gambling vs. recreational gambling.

2 - There have been about a zillion threads about casual players AND pros paying their taxes. One of the best threads was in the internet-forum in Feb or Mar I think. A poster named 'CPA' answered many questions about it very intelligently. My Q's are all over that thread naturally.
I'm sure you (or someone) will be able to find it in the archives.
Definitely read that thread because it sounds like you have virtually zero idea what you are doing regarding the taxes (which is okay....so did I).

3 - Make sure you keep accurate daily records of your wins/losses as well as your 'professional' expenses (such as internet-connection, poker-books, etc) and you will be better prepared to deal with the IRS if they come knocking on your door wondering what the hell you're doing for income.

4 - Read the series of articles by Ed Miller in the 2+2 internet-magazine regarding 'going pro' (in the upper-left corner fo the green-bar).
He has written about it over the last 3 months
Hurry up too...because the first of those articles will be deleted forever soon (the 2+2 articles 'expire' after 3 months).
Also read the articles in the magazine by Al Schoonmaker on the same topic.


5 - I'm going to go back and say it.
I don't know how much you've been winning or what limit you are playing. But $50k in rakeback while only thinking you need to save up for a $6k-$7k bankroll sounds "possible" but still a little weird to me.


6 - While you're under your wife's health-care...you shouldn't 'rely' on her income for anything else...otherwise she could resent the situation and you could have problems.
There is a difference between: a. being a pro-poker player, and b. being a losing poker-player who relies on his wife's/GF's income.

In other words...it is my opinion that if it doesn't go well for you then YOU have to suck it up and get a job BEFORE
considering the idea of "honey, I've just had some bad luck and need a little money to keep me going. I know it's going to turn-around. I promise."

It's situations like this that you want to avoid obviously.

Thus, I believe you HAVE to prepared to get a real job again if it goes badly.....and thus you want to have a much larger bankroll then you initially think might be necessary in order to avoid such a situation.


Obviously this differs from person to person and couple to couple. Just my suggestions on how to best approach the situation.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

One thing I think it's important to remember is that you need to be prepared to be spending in the range of (at least) $600 a month in childcare. It's a pretty good hit to the monthly expenses. Diapers and baby food do add up but daycare is what can really cost you. Don't forget about the fact that getting up (and staying awake) at 7am with the baby is going to be tough after you've stayed up until 2am at the tables. I like your idea of going after what you want to do, and if you can take care of yourselves by playing poker in the meantime then great. I would wait until you are more settled (ie. finished with school, working full time) before going ahead with kids though. Just my $.02. Good luck.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

I did a lot of searching today in the threads. Ive pulled up millers articles, and even got back to re-reading David Ross's first and seconf year posts. Which I must say did actually keep me insipred in the dark beginning days of failing at 1/2. Its weird, looking back at those posts now, the certain hands, I actually have MY own opinions about what some of the pros are doing. When I first read them it was more like a manual that I didnt dare contridict.

Anyways, Ive decided that I will eventually leave my current job, but I think im going to up my bankroll requirements a lot. I think I need to wait until I have about 1000BB of 10/20. Ive got a long way to go. I think that during this time I can study a whole lot more from current pros, get out all the questions I can think of and be over-ready for doing this. I think that this over-protection will enable me to enjoy my first few months a lot more as most pros usually hit a hard streak when they go fulltime. I dont want to stress then, I want to enjoy not working [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Also Im really thinking after I get back from vegas next month Im going to start taking like a monthly JoeTall coaching session.

Its funny (IF you're sick of this NC post then please stop reading now)
Tomorrow is my birthday and earlier today I went back home to have dinner with my family. I got to sit down to talk with my sister who just graduated high school and started college. She too is intersted in graphic desgin. She publishes her own Japanese Manga, and just started classes.

I've relized recently that she's really a lot smarter than I give her credit for, and really enjoy talking seriously with her now. I told her of my "going pro" post on here and asked her opinion. She gave a pretty weird look when I was talking about winning and losing hundreds of dollars everyday. Not much help here.
My dad came out then and I tactfully brought the topic up again with him. This was pretty tough. After telling him about my stats, the money potential, and going back to school, he just kind of looked at me weird and told me that he could never rely on gambling to support his family. My mother was a little more aggro about the situation as she commented "I will kick your ass if you quit your job!"

Hmmm, maybe in a year or so If I show them a 20K balance in Neteller they may think different.

...Anyways thanks everyone. Appreciate the help.

_______________________________________________
"F@CK IT IM GOING TO PLAY CARDS!"

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

Uh, you might want to consider somewhere between 3-6 months living expenses, in addition to your bankroll as well.

Right now I'm going semi-pro. I don't rely on poker to pay the bills, but I take it more serious than a recreational hobby. I have been a winning player this year (slight loser last year, kept statistics, but I've studied A LOT more this year and improved my game quite a bit)

I'm not making enough to live off of, but I'm enjoying it and it's profitable. I work, as does my soon-to-be-wife. We have no children and no intention of having them, so that makes it easier.

Since you have a wife and kids and mortgage, I recommend the following:

1. Leave the wife and kids

2. Buy a dog, you need some type of companionship, plus he can protect you when you sleep on the streets in the back alley

3. Hang around casinos wearing "urban" clothing and majorly tacky "bling". Harass the regulars until they begin staking you, then forget to pay them back, or complain how you're "stuck" and can't pay the 100 bucks back (while you have 3 grand worth of chips in play)

4. Stop shaving regularly, the scruffy look is uber-pro

5. Start eating those ramon noodles, it'll prepare you for life as a poker pro and college student

6. Find some gold digging chick who will only stick around when you're winning. This will help you to play better, since you won't want to lose the nookie

7. Develop a coke habit and rob convenience stores and gas stations, then claim to be a "victim of circumstance"

8. Place 9th in the WSOP for $1 million (U.S.) and then casually remark how it was only worth your time to place in the top 3, and that this million will only pay off a few markers.

9. Blame various psychological disorders and medications for the cause of your outbursts at the tables.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

god bless the mouth

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
What are your plans for health insurance? Also you're to damn young to be having kids yet. Shouldn't even consider it until you're finished with college and in a job in your field.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is without a doubt the most reasonable advice in this thread. If you don't think that things can change and you and your wife can lose her insurance coverage, you haven't had enough real life experience. All kinds of thing happen in life that you don't expect, and you have to have some sort of contingency--for your income and your health care.

My sister and brother-in-law are in their late 20s. Their combined income was $100k +. They had their first child two years ago. He was born with a rare heart defect that has already required 3 open heart surgeries. My sister chose not to return to work because, among other reasons, my nephew's condition meant that he could not be around other people for over a year because he couldn't risk exposure to any germs. Before his birth, the family chose to be covered by my sister's insurance, as hers had the best coverage. Since she did not return to work, they lost that coverage. They are covered now, through my brother-in-law's work, but his copay is over $1,500 per month. They do not have her income to help pay that copay. Additionally, their hospital bills not only wiped out all their savings, but has put them into serious debt. These are 2 people who had a healthy income, healthy savings, good jobs and a plan.

It really doesn't matter how good of a poker player you are--you can't predict the future and you don't seem to have a plan. What if the current poker fad turns out just to be a fad and the only people who play on line are people with comparable skill so that you can't make the amount of money you think you can? What if your wife loses her job, or suddenly has to pay part of her insurance coverage (which is extremely likely, as it is the easiest way for companies to cut their bottom line). What if a member of your family gets ill, and you are suddenly stuck with huge hospital debt (even the best plans have a cap and only cover 80% of major medical).

I agree with previous posters who say that if children are in the picture, you have to think of them first. But even without children, even if you were single, for your own sake you need to think long term. If you don't want to sit behind a desk or be part of the corporate structure, then plan something else and really think through the next 10-20 years. Have a contingency for the unexpected. You owe it to yourself and your family.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

I am a pro..well by most people's standards. I make my living through poker. I took the leap two years ago. I am 27, two children, mortgage, etc....

I can't give you advice, I don't know you or your situation well enough, BUT!!! You better know you're a winner. Not just be up over the last couple of months. You have to know before sitting down that there is no possibility that anyone has done more preparation, no one is paying more attention to the game, and no one is more relaxed.

Knowing the odds and being a short term winner isn't giving you an accurate view of reality. You have to be able to perform day in and day out at your best under the pressure of knowing that if you don't win--you don't eat.

I would recommend schoonmaker's Psychology of poker.

I can also give you some stats of my own. I started with 25K. I play in the $10-20 and $20-40. I only play about 8 days out of the month and I average somewhere around 9-12K a month. I play online everyday---small stakes. I play in two home games a week. It sounds great, BUT, I know I'm a great player. I also have a good bankroll and a college degree to fall back on. I study something to do with poker for an hour everyday and have for years. I excercise, eat very healthy, get plenty of sleep, etc... Between online and live play I average playing somewhere around 800 hands a DAY. I am a model of consistency and self control.

I'm not telling you this to brag, but you and everyone should know that poker takes the same attributes as any other profession to be great. Hard work, dedication, and consistency. You're not leaving one job to play poker professionally---You're leaving one job for another job.

If you don't treat it that way, or think it will be different for you YOU WILL LOSE

my honest opinion from your posts is that you're not ready...sorry, but I believe that you would already be president of the company you work for if you presently had what it takes to be a true pro. Succesful poker pros would be successful at anything they did. They are willing to do the things that others are not to be winners... Just like you could take just about any CEO or successful business owner and make a great poker pro out of them.

Sincerely,
unseasoned pro

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

there will be an army of people that will silently fail miserably at pro poker, because 1. they dont have the talent. and 2. poker is soooo much luck. does anyone realize that 70% of poker is waiting until two players have good hands, they go all in, and one of them loses when he did nothing wrong?

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

Just a couple random thoughts.

Somewhere in Mid-high in the "A very Tommy Hand" thread, Tommy Angelo is giving his thought process on how he played a hand. Towards the end he says something like: "I had no hand, no position, but lots of time...so I folded"

It was the "lots of time" comment that interested me. I wondered, how many of the Internet Pros on this site have "lot's of time." , Especially those who are playing 5/10 or lower.

What do you need to have "lots of time" as a pro? I think this means that you have your finances in order and that they are not necessarily dependent on extreme short term results.

Can you go a month or two without winning and making a withdrawl.

Think about it. Say you are playing 5/10 and you have a $10,000 bankroll. Say you need to clear 3000 a month, minimum, which may mean $4000 before taxes.

Say you have a couple short months... where is the shortfall going to come from? If it comes from savings, then you have a cushion, you won't have to pillage your bankroll. But say your savings are not adequate, and say you have to take from your bankroll. Maybe the end of the month looks like this: You had a weak month and only grossed $2500, you withdraw, then and need another $1,000 to get by. If that $1,000 needs to come from your bankroll, you have in essence inflicted a 100BB downswing for the month on your bankroll. It (your bankroll) does not know the difference between a withdrawl and a downswing.

Numerous posts lately have dealt with short term/long term. The concensus seems to be it is important not to get too tied into your short-term results as that can negatively affect your play when things do not go well. I submit to you that there are many players who depend upon their poker income entirely or partially , for whom it is impossible to ignore short term results, since they are depending upon them to pay their bills for that month (ie they don't have the cushion that they need.)

So if you are going to turn pro, you obviously want to be able to play optimally as much as possible. I think it is important to structure your finances as such that month to month results, will not have a large impct on you financially.

If you cannot arrange your finances that way, you probably should not turn pro.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am a pro..well by most people's standards. I make my living through poker. I took the leap two years ago. I am 27, two children, mortgage, etc....

I can't give you advice, I don't know you or your situation well enough, BUT!!! You better know you're a winner. Not just be up over the last couple of months. You have to know before sitting down that there is no possibility that anyone has done more preparation, no one is paying more attention to the game, and no one is more relaxed.

Knowing the odds and being a short term winner isn't giving you an accurate view of reality. You have to be able to perform day in and day out at your best under the pressure of knowing that if you don't win--you don't eat.

I would recommend schoonmaker's Psychology of poker.

I can also give you some stats of my own. I started with 25K. I play in the $10-20 and $20-40. I only play about 8 days out of the month and I average somewhere around 9-12K a month. I play online everyday---small stakes. I play in two home games a week. It sounds great, BUT, I know I'm a great player. I also have a good bankroll and a college degree to fall back on. I study something to do with poker for an hour everyday and have for years. I excercise, eat very healthy, get plenty of sleep, etc... Between online and live play I average playing somewhere around 800 hands a DAY. I am a model of consistency and self control.

I'm not telling you this to brag, but you and everyone should know that poker takes the same attributes as any other profession to be great. Hard work, dedication, and consistency. You're not leaving one job to play poker professionally---You're leaving one job for another job.

If you don't treat it that way, or think it will be different for you YOU WILL LOSE

my honest opinion from your posts is that you're not ready...sorry, but I believe that you would already be president of the company you work for if you presently had what it takes to be a true pro. Succesful poker pros would be successful at anything they did. They are willing to do the things that others are not to be winners... Just like you could take just about any CEO or successful business owner and make a great poker pro out of them.

Sincerely,
unseasoned pro

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the advice. Seriously...and this goes for everyone here... anyone that takes time out of their day to help me is a true colleague/friend in my book. I have to disagree with some of your comments though... First. 800 hands a day to a 4-8 tabling 6 max player is a joke. Sorry, but seriously I play over 350-400 hands an hour, and this is a very low average. Secondly, I dont plan to play professional online poker for the rest of my life, just the few years while I go to school. Also at the amount of hands I play, "the R word" alone would pay me more than I make now, I prop. I make more than 3X almost every other player does in "r/b". Its about 2.5-3BB per hour per table.
I understand that this is your situation, and it works for you. But my situation and yours, and everyone else at 2+2 are all different.
Lastly, about the President of my company comment..my CEO makes 2mil. a year, he owns 51% of the company and I doubt is worried about any 24yr old genious(which im not), taking his job since hes married to the other owner's daughter. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously you dont understand the buisness I'm in. Its a different type of lifestyle and job than anyone can imagine here unles you've done it. I do very unethical things to decent people just to gain revenue or security of revenue for my company....both consumers and my crew of collectors...it's my job to protect the compnay, not myself, nor my employees.
Bill colectors are A22holes, bill collector managers are even bigger A22holes, and collection agency CEO's and directors are Satan. All the rumors and stories you here about us are probably true. Lie, cheat, and steal, the motto of a good collector.
If you can't tell from my sarcasm, I'm far too nice of a guy personally to be such a D!ck at work, it gets hadrer and harder to keep Richard the D!ck and Rick the laid back, poker player, nice guy, musician dude seperated. That's the root of the whole problem.
I think Ive gotten a ton of great advice in this post, but I think it's life expectancy is overdue [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Basically I know now that to play 5/10 FT and going back to shcool is going to cost me about 20-25K total for all expenses...and thats before paying for school. Ive come to that and will be taking steps to constantly improve my game and maybe in a while I'll hit this mark and be confident enough to go at it. But for now "F@CK IT I'M GOING TO PLAY CARDS!!....after work, in between band practice and gigs, while working on my house...Who needs sleep?!!

Thanks for everything guys.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, you might want to consider somewhere between 3-6 months living expenses, in addition to your bankroll as well.

Right now I'm going semi-pro. I don't rely on poker to pay the bills, but I take it more serious than a recreational hobby. I have been a winning player this year (slight loser last year, kept statistics, but I've studied A LOT more this year and improved my game quite a bit)

I'm not making enough to live off of, but I'm enjoying it and it's profitable. I work, as does my soon-to-be-wife. We have no children and no intention of having them, so that makes it easier.

Since you have a wife and kids and mortgage, I recommend the following:

1. Leave the wife and kids

2. Buy a dog, you need some type of companionship, plus he can protect you when you sleep on the streets in the back alley

3. Hang around casinos wearing "urban" clothing and majorly tacky "bling". Harass the regulars until they begin staking you, then forget to pay them back, or complain how you're "stuck" and can't pay the 100 bucks back (while you have 3 grand worth of chips in play)

4. Stop shaving regularly, the scruffy look is uber-pro

5. Start eating those ramon noodles, it'll prepare you for life as a poker pro and college student

6. Find some gold digging chick who will only stick around when you're winning. This will help you to play better, since you won't want to lose the nookie

7. Develop a coke habit and rob convenience stores and gas stations, then claim to be a "victim of circumstance"

8. Place 9th in the WSOP for $1 million (U.S.) and then casually remark how it was only worth your time to place in the top 3, and that this million will only pay off a few markers.

9. Blame various psychological disorders and medications for the cause of your outbursts at the tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

This list is just gold. You're going to get me in trouble at work for laughing too loud.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiousity, where have I seen your cactus before?

[/ QUOTE ]
that's Cactuar, a recurring character in the Final Fantasy series.
I think he debuted in FFIII in the desert. He usually ran away before you could kill him, but if you killed him, he gave tons of XP.
Love fighting Cactuar.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope FFVII...

[/ QUOTE ]



i don't have much else to contribute to this thread other than Cactuar was, indeed, in FF6. I believe in FF7 he was renamed Cactrot (which he has been called ever since, I think)

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
This list is just gold. You're going to get me in trouble at work for laughing too loud.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to be a source of entertainment. Although some of my post was actually meant to be serious. Best of luck to you, whatever you choose.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Say you are playing 5/10 and you have a $10,000 bankroll. Say you need to clear 3000 a month, minimum

[/ QUOTE ]


$10k bankroll is insufficient for 5/10 and $3k monthly-nut.


2 months expenses (the minimum of what you should have in reserve) is $6k and that only leaves you 400BB for 5/10.
A nice 150BB+ down-swing is something you will REALLY feel and probably stress-about a lot. And such a down-swing will happen eventually (and probably when you are least likely to be able to tolerate it).

Seriously...I don't think I would put myself in such a situation (5/10, $10k roll, $3k/mth expenses) as you're just playing too short.


If I HAD to keep playing even with a $10k roll while oweing $3k/mth I would probably grind it out at 3/6 really hard (thank you rake-back and bonuses) and would feel more comfortable at 10/20 once I built my total up to $15k (which could take a little while since the first $3k that you earn each month goes right to expenses).


I would be more comfortable doing 5/10 on only $10k if I could cut my expenses down to $2k/mth for a stretch.
But even this almost feels thinnish to me (but probably isn't TOO dangerous).

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

Best of luck to you bud, I didn't mean to be so critical. AND I did say that I couldn't give you any great advice because I don't know you or your situation.

The president comment was just to point out that successful people are successful people. Before I quit my job I was on a quick and strong ride to the top. Most of the other pros I know are the same way. Poker pros aren't profitable because they're good at poker. They're profitable because of who they are.

I also have to tell you that I have one of the most rewarding and fulfilling lives that I can imagine. It has been a blessing for my family and I. I spend at least two hours a day playing with my daughters (7years & 18 months)and an awful lot of time with my wife.

I will tell you that I average 2bb/hr. in live play and my hourly expectation is better in online play when I only play at one table. (reason for the unexcessive amount of hands played by your view.) I still think that's a lot of hands. But I don't rely on my online winnings....as a matter of fact my wife usually loses whatever I win online...lol.

Anyway, I sincerely hope the best for you and your family. Hopefully someday we'll conversate over some felt.

Jcar12

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Say you are playing 5/10 and you have a $10,000 bankroll. Say you need to clear 3000 a month, minimum

[/ QUOTE ]


$10k bankroll is insufficient for 5/10 and $3k monthly-nut.


2 months expenses (the minimum of what you should have in reserve) is $6k and that only leaves you 400BB for 5/10.
A nice 150BB+ down-swing is something you will REALLY feel and probably stress-about a lot. And such a down-swing will happen eventually (and probably when you are least likely to be able to tolerate it).

Seriously...I don't think I would put myself in such a situation (5/10, $10k roll, $3k/mth expenses) as you're just playing too short.


If I HAD to keep playing even with a $10k roll while oweing $3k/mth I would probably grind it out at 3/6 really hard (thank you rake-back and bonuses) and would feel more comfortable at 10/20 once I built my total up to $15k (which could take a little while since the first $3k that you earn each month goes right to expenses).


I would be more comfortable doing 5/10 on only $10k if I could cut my expenses down to $2k/mth for a stretch.
But even this almost feels thinnish to me (but probably isn't TOO dangerous).

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of the point of my post.

Re: My contribution to all the \"turning pro\" posts. LONG
 

My initial advice is to go to your local community college and research AAS (2-year career) programs. There are plenty in Business Studies which could have increased market value due to your management experience. Specifically, my CC has an "Visual Communications Technology" AAS, so see what interests you and go from there. Obviously, suburban NJ may not be as flexible as apparently-rural Illinois, but meh.

The point is, you can stop-and-go here if you want. You could even space it out starting this spring: 12/8-12(summer)/12/12/8-12/finish Fall '07. IF you can live with grinding classes on a regular basis, go for it.

I would imagine that most colleges in your state accept 64-credit Associate's Degrees in full if you're interested in hitting up a Bachelor's. Be mindful of financial aid packages as well (FAFSA); I'm not sure how married couples function in this regard.

In closing, don't be this guy:

What do you do with a B.A. in English,
What is my life going to be?
Four years of college and plenty of knowledge,
Have earned me this useless degree.

I can't pay the bills yet,
'Cause I have no skills yet,
The world is a big scary place.

But somehow I can't shake,
The feeling I might make,
A difference,
To the human race.