10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

Vilalin is 51/15/2 over 68 hands.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

I feel this is a fold i used to not make but have started making recently. Thoughts?

Surf

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

I check this river in position. I don't think I can call this check raise unless I have a read on this guy as very tricky/loves to bluff.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

I think this is an uber-easy fold considering you've done nothing but bet/raise at every opportunity and he still like his hand enough to c/r you on the river.

You don't think this is a pretty thin value bet? What will he call with that you beat?

Edit: I guess a 5 or 6 is he's superdonk (which i see it looks like he is, but still. I guess if that's a good value bet I'm missing some)

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

Nice hand.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

I don't know if I'm being too weak but I often don't raise this flop because I feel it threatens my likelihood of seeing a showdown too much. I assume you are calling down a flop 3-bet but how about a turn c/r? It's weird but in these hands where I have position I generally feel much more in control when I let the lag keep betting. Generally I think I would call down unless the turn is a non diamond overcard in which case I might raise and take the free SD.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

I usually just call down here as well, but given that you raised the flop well played. Easy river fold, and I think the value bet is good.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

[ QUOTE ]
...in which case I might raise and take the free SD.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think the value bet is too thin as I do?

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

Nah.. given the way it was played I like a river value bet. If he had called and raised the turn on a high card like I talked about he would be showing ton more strength so things would be different on the end.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

looks good to me.

i like the river valuebet/fold.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

I'd bet/fold the river as well. A lot of straight draws could have paired the river card and will pay you off. He checkraised the river after you've shown nothing but strength the whole way, so I think it's a safe fold.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

Wow, I guess I'm missing some value bets (well, I knew that was the case but its hard to identify where). Good to know.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

The river is an easy value bet because you are will get called by a 5, a 6, a straight draw that became a pair of 7's, and some Ace high's.

I think the flop raise is fine if he is aggressive enough that you can call down even if he 3-bets or if he is passive enough that a 3-bet means at least a J. I think the important street here is the turn. I routinely check behind here and call a river bet because I don't really feel like I can call down if checkraised but, since I have a diamond I would really hate to fold also.

Cartman

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

If you are planning to check behind a lot of turns then it makes the flop raise REALLY counterproductive as you end up letting him to the river for 33% cheaper since he would have almost always kept betting worse hands.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

[ QUOTE ]
looks good to me.

i like the river valuebet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn’t a spot where I’d value bet, and value betting is a real weak part of my game right now, and I would really like to understand why this is a good spot.

So, if this is a good value bet, then you need to assume as long as you don’t get chk-raised more than you get called by worse hands it’s +EV.

Given that river chk-raises are pretty rare, it’s a good value bet.

Yes?

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are planning to check behind a lot of turns then it makes the flop raise REALLY counterproductive as you end up letting him to the river for 33% cheaper since he would have almost always kept betting worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are exactly right and I hadn't previously realized this. I was actually only planning on checking behind on a diamond turn and betting and folding to a raise on any non-diamond turn, does that still make a flop raise incorrect?

Thanks,
Cartman

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

You have to take into account that he bluff/value bets the river with worse hands MUCH more often after you check behind the turn than if you call his bets on two streets. Not saying that swings the pendulum or anything, but it needed to be pointed out.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

I did consider this but decided this guy is just as likely to bluff the riv if you just call him down vs. raise flop/check turn.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

It is a good fold.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are planning to check behind a lot of turns then it makes the flop raise REALLY counterproductive as you end up letting him to the river for 33% cheaper since he would have almost always kept betting worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are exactly right and I hadn't previously realized this. I was actually only planning on checking behind on a diamond turn and betting and folding to a raise on any non-diamond turn, does that still make a flop raise incorrect?

Thanks,
Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I'm not sure but as I said before I am very wary against these types of any line that can easily jeaopardize my seeing a showdown with a showdownable hand. Therefore, the part of this I dislike is planning to fold to a turn c/r, since you will be folding the best hand a fair bit of the time. I would rather not give him the option of checkraising me (assuming he is not clever enough to use the screwplay).

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

Thx for the input everyone.

FWIW I think the river is a very easy value-bet, tons of worse hands will call. the 2 points were regarding A) folding to the raise(very aggressive opponent) and B) my flop raise. Villain will donk all sorts of stuff here, including a complete bluff. I judged that my hand was strong enough, and the pot was big enough, to start raising for value.

Danenania expressed concern that we would be shutting down bluffs that would bet the turn (and maybe river!) while opening ourselves up to a fold with a showdownable hand. It's a valid concern - anyone else care to weigh in on this situation?

Surf

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

the fact that you ever called this river with a pair of 9's means yu should stop throwing your money at poker and NEVER play again.

Re: 10/20: a river laydown - 99
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.

[/ QUOTE ]