What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

Hello all. I've been playing poker full time for close to two years....anywhere from $3/$6 to $10/$20 (4 tables, 10 seated mostly) and have been consistently winning. However, I only made $20K last year (I bounced around sites, propped,....bad runs, learning curve, bad play etc....). I have played better this year but still have only made $30K so far. I can't tell if I'm not playing optimally or if it's just bad luck. My winrate is a little less than 1.0BB/100 hands (not counting rakeback).

I am a 15/8/1.6 player. I've read all the poker books, some of them several times. I am not a regular here, but have read many posts. I understand many advanced concepts. I've played many hands.

I play against some 17/15/2.2 type players and notice that they are the toughest opponents (and therefore think maybe I should be playing as they do). However, I can't help but notice these players making, what appears to be, bad plays (i.e. three betting my UTG raise with something like ATs then calling me down when they miss)....but, they seem to consistently win and to wreak havoc for me.

I guess my question is...what might I be missing? I know this is a difficult question to answer...I guess I'm just looking for some input. Am I playing too tight and conservatively (I've tried playing looser, but it always seems to end up killing me)? Should I be playing 6max games? What do you think separates a solid player from an advanced player?

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I play against some 17/15/2.2 type players and notice that they are the toughest opponents (and therefore think maybe I should be playing as they do). However, I can't help but notice these players making, what appears to be, bad plays (i.e. three betting my UTG raise with something like ATs then calling me down when they miss)....but, they seem to consistently win and to wreak havoc for me.


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Not trying to answer your question in full, but I do want to comment on your observation above. What I suspect happens is that these guys (who are still too tight at 17 vpip) are running over you a little. Often they three-bet then are able to bet you off the hand later. The few times you do see show-down, you see how weak their hands were.

My guess is that you are not tenacious enough post-flop. You probably follow a fit or fold strategy which work for some games but are not optimal for the games you play.

I find that the most aggressive guy at a table gains an edge by his aggression alone. (Now he may have other weaknesses that offset it, such as playing too loose.) Sounds like not only are you not the most aggressive at the table, but you are letting the aggressive ones run you over. I'm not suggesting that you ratchet up your aggression if it's not comfortable for you, but I think it helps to explain your less than satisfactory results.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

I love having 17/15 players at my table. It is like they almost get it... but they don't. Hyper-agros that pay off like a slot machine with comparitively weak hands. Be willing to go to more bets with these players. Also be willing to call down with 99 on a 1 or 2 broadway board. I think their problem is that they recognize the hands that are open-raises, but not those hands that are folds instead of 3bets. Just be aware of what that means.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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My winrate is a little less than 1.0BB/100 hands (not counting rakeback).

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Over how many hands? I assume this is over 150k+ hands considering how much money you have won at the stakes you play.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

GoodOl,

if you play from 3-6 to 10-20, you preflop standard is undoubtably too tight, IMO. but judging you by the words and the tone of your post, i suspect you are quite young and initially under-funded and also a little over-self-estimating, who might also overthink sometimes.

all that is just my opinion, and i could be wrong. plese don't take it the wrong way. what i am trying to say is that i sense some immature in you, and that could partially contribute to your not-so-great results.

from my experience, the players (me included) in your mindset has great potential to improve but are probably currently in a mental stage of poker slightly ahead of your skill set. you might think you are better than you actually are (i am guilty of it), becasue of past results or self-evaluation base on studying and such. this is not a big problem, until you constantly play in games where you are out-matched (unlikely for you, in the games you are currently playing).

i strongly recommend that you read your books more carefully and try to obsorb all you can. read the same books more time would help too. more important, share your thoughts, experiences, and ideas here, to get help from the forum, and to give help to the forum. try to contribute more and in the process of that, you will gain great knowledge and peace and comfort. you game will no doubt improve. and one day, you might be able to play in the same league as the big boys, like BK, shnieds, Dcifr, Andy, Tommy, El D, Mike l., Snakehead, Clark, etc.

oh, don't play like TSP, hehehe... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] (J/K, i actually don't know TSP at all, just thought it's fun to make fun of him, pls forgive, TSP).

I am currently in somewhat a struggle myself. I don't know what it is yet and I am still in search of my real enemy within. from the surface, i could just be running bad, but before i am sure of that, I bought a ton of books and started to spend more time here on 2+2 and TNT. I am confident things will turn around (if i had been playing winning player) or i will finally begin to play winning poker if all of last 3 years were just a huge fluke and i simply had been running good.

anyway, best of luck, and have fun at the tables!

- Kenny

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I love having 17/15 players at my table. It is like they almost get it... but they don't. Hyper-agros that pay off like a slot machine with comparitively weak hands. Be willing to go to more bets with these players. Also be willing to call down with 99 on a 1 or 2 broadway board. I think their problem is that they recognize the hands that are open-raises, but not those hands that are folds instead of 3bets. Just be aware of what that means.

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i don't like 17/15 by far. i'd much rather play with 54/4.

not every close.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

MY stats are VERY similar 16/10/1.9 with river being a 1.2 (I miss a lot of value bets)

Honestly I just can't find more hands to play. I play Axs and small pp's from EP when the table is right. I'll open-raise with KQo from UTG, or after limpers. I don't cold call and 3bet with small pocket pairs as much as some people seem to do on here. I have GREAT game selection so I don't really get the opportunity to steal. My att to steal is 44% !!! From the HiJack I am raising all kinds of stuff. I'll isolate maniacs and 80/5/.5 guys with almost any JT or better if everyone else is tight. Have I just been cold decked for 100K hands?

Post flop - I miss value bets and I know this. I also miss turn bets and raises, because if someone semi-bluffs the flop then I am checking and calling A LOT. So I know I am missing some value.

I was a lil looser at 2/4 and was beating it for 2.75BB/100, but at 5/10 and 10/20 I am just scraping by. Everytime I sit in the 15 game I get run over.

Please help.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

This is a great question, I am a 15/9 player, but I also tried to transition, and went to the 19/17 player, and was one of the guys that cardshop was talking about (someone who almost gets it, but not quite.) What is the next step to get to become better.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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This is a great question, I am a 15/9 player, but I also tried to transition, and went to the 19/17 player, and was one of the guys that cardshop was talking about (someone who almost gets it, but not quite.) What is the next step to get to become better.

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to stlanty and emperor - don't try to improve your game by aiming for an "optimal" vp$ip. improve your game so that your vp$ip is better. that is just to say, don't try to create situations to increase the number, because this will invariably lead to mistakes (e.g., making bad coldcalls or EP limps w/ the justification that this must be the way to optimalize vpip). figure out which situations you are misplaying preflop, and the proper vp$ip will follow.

not saying that you guys are doing this, but just advising.

here are a couple situations that may be leading to your low vp$ip:

1) perhaps you don't steal from the cutoff and hijack enough. many players who are "almost there" oversteal from the button and understeal from the 2 seats right of the button. as you move up in limits, you will notice that you will be less able to steal from the button because there is a lot more opening from the cutoff and hijack.

2) you may not be defending your big blind to steal raises enough. remember that you are getting 3.5:1 on a button/LP steal, and there are some pretty crappy-looking hands with which you should be defending. (of course don't take this too far.)

what range of hands would you defend from the bb against a steal from an aggressive button?

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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1) perhaps you don't steal from the cutoff and hijack enough. many players who are "almost there" oversteal from the button and understeal from the 2 seats right of the button. as you move up in limits, you will notice that you will be less able to steal from the button because there is a lot more opening from the cutoff and hijack.

2) you may not be defending your big blind to steal raises enough. remember that you are getting 3.5:1 on a button/LP steal, and there are some pretty crappy-looking hands with which you should be defending. (of course don't take this too far.)

what range of hands would you defend from the bb against a steal from an aggressive button?

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1. I am a stealing machine, I probably steal too much. 44%
2. I defend 50-60% vs a steal I think this might could go up some, but I suck so bad postflop HU that I laydown a lot of misses.
3. To go from 16 to 20 VPIP thats 4 hands every 10 orbits, of those hands almost all of them should be raising hands to bring preflop raise % up? So I would guess I am not raising my button often enough after limpers or blind stealers??

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

nice insight, Psycho. I may be guilty of that as well. I'm 15/10 and can easily see how HJ or CO stealing would bump that up.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

What do those 3 numbers mean?
xx/xx/xx?
These are PokerTracker nums.?

Can I get a quick explan.? Or a link to a post that has one?

***
I don't like hyper-aggresive players, either...(I need to work on a way of dealing with them better, as I'm sure there are many situations where I'm losing bets to them I shouldn't be...)

I think you need to
play fewer hands pre-flop and go right back at them with the hands you do play...(i.e., if they 3 bet you, Cap - presuming you have a premium hand...).

Flop betting can be the "deceptive" round, as you know from all the books you read...
The guy could be capping with 2 big cards and that's it! Know that he'll only pair at least 1 of them on 1/3rd of the flops you see together...and take chances/test him...

And sometimes, on medium strength made hands, don't fold. Just go to call down mode from the flop...(I know I'm goiing to get reamed for saying this, but you get a feel for when you should do this...if there's a ton of hands that can beat you fold, but these "agros" (is this right?)
Cap
with 1 overcard and an inside str8 draw, so call down often...
(also, if they know you'll call down they'll be less likely to always try to make you fold
by betting and, consequently, they'll become a little easier to read on future hands...).
Don't be pushed around - and when you do make a hand against them, slow-play and punish!
***


Joe M.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

I am 15/10/2.3 in the Party 10/20 full game and doing well. Maybe you can do a little better post-flop.

I don't think the pre-flop VPIP tightness is as much an issue as some will make it out to be. Adding 4 percentage points means adding the 4 most marginal hands a 19% VPIP would play every 10 full orbits. They won't add much to your rate, if anything. And the players you make money from are not going to be adjusting to this tiny difference.

Don't worry so much about how others are winning with various stats. You can't possibly have enough hands on them to judge them in this way. Their bad plays look bad because they are bad; don't imitate these, take advantage instead. Think about what they do well if you want to add something to your game.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I am 15/10/2.3 in the Party 10/20 full game and doing well. Maybe you can do a little better post-flop.


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Post Flop - Definitely! Bad laydowns and bad calldowns seem to throw my variance all over the place and I'm sure thats whats dragging down my BB/100. By bad I mean folding when I was ahead with a made hand, and by bad calldowns I mean failing to recognize a 3bet in a multiway pot on the turn with a flushed and str8t board means the fish caught the nuts and my top pair is no good.

I'm sure there are hundreds of marginal errors in there as well, but I'd bet they are the difference between 2 and 3 BB/100. I'm looking just to earn 2bb/100 consistently right now... :P

thanks!

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I am 15/10/2.3 in the Party 10/20 full game and doing well. Maybe you can do a little better post-flop.


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Post Flop - Definitely! Bad laydowns and bad calldowns seem to throw my variance all over the place and I'm sure thats whats dragging down my BB/100. By bad I mean folding when I was ahead with a made hand, and by bad calldowns I mean failing to recognize a 3bet in a multiway pot on the turn with a flushed and str8t board means the fish caught the nuts and my top pair is no good.

I'm sure there are hundreds of marginal errors in there as well, but I'd bet they are the difference between 2 and 3 BB/100. I'm looking just to earn 2bb/100 consistently right now... :P

thanks!

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I think I am at the same stage of progression as you, or at least near it. I have the tendancy to call down WAY too much though, rather than folding w/ a made hand. If you want to chat about anything, exchange hands etc, so I can figure hwo to change and where, let me know.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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NH sir! Unfortunately I like to see what they will say next.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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NH sir! Unfortunately I like to see what they will say next.

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Im assuming that was in regards to ilovebadbeats?

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

first i would like to echo TimM's post - if being a little too tight preflop and not squeezing out every possible ounce of ev on that street is your biggest problem, don't be too worried.

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1. I am a stealing machine, I probably steal too much. 44%

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this seems about right

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2. I defend 50-60% vs a steal I think this might could go up some, but I suck so bad postflop HU that I laydown a lot of misses.

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this could go up some as you said, but is not ridiculously bad. what about in the sb? a lot of good players are probably a little too tight in the sb against a steal raise. against an aggressive button you should be 3-betting a lot.

regarding your comment about sucking postflop hu, i recommend stepping down a limit or two to play a few thousand hands that are exclusively 2-5 handed. this will make you more proficient in blind v. blind and blind v. stealer scenarios.

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3. To go from 16 to 20 VPIP thats 4 hands every 10 orbits, of those hands almost all of them should be raising hands to bring preflop raise % up? So I would guess I am not raising my button often enough after limpers or blind stealers??

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this is a distinct possibility. when there are two or more limpers to you on the button you can play a bunch of hands for a limp or a raise (depending on what kind of hand you have).

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I am 15/10/2.3 in the Party 10/20 full game and doing well.


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I don't agree with your reasoning here at all. adding 5 hands per 100 hands is quite a significant increase. obviously most of your winrate comes from the top 3-4% of hands but just defending a few more +EV hands in the blinds and opening a few more hands in MP or LP can have a significant impact on your winrate.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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NH sir! Unfortunately I like to see what they will say next.

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Im assuming that was in regards to ilovebadbeats?

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He's had some doozies.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I am 15/10/2.3 in the Party 10/20 full game and doing well.


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I don't agree with your reasoning here at all. adding 5 hands per 100 hands is quite a significant increase. obviously most of your winrate comes from the top 3-4% of hands but just defending a few more +EV hands in the blinds and opening a few more hands in MP or LP can have a significant impact on your winrate.

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Well I am absolutely horrible in the blinds BB = (.18)BB/hand and sb = (.15)BB/hand, It might be time to play some 1/2 6max for me...

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I am 15/10/2.3 in the Party 10/20 full game and doing well.


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I don't agree with your reasoning here at all. adding 5 hands per 100 hands is quite a significant increase. obviously most of your winrate comes from the top 3-4% of hands but just defending a few more +EV hands in the blinds and opening a few more hands in MP or LP can have a significant impact on your winrate.

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Well I am absolutely horrible in the blinds BB = (.18)BB/hand and sb = (.15)BB/hand, It might be time to play some 1/2 6max for me...

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your sample size is probably way too small to make any judgments about this.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I am 15/10/2.3 in the Party 10/20 full game and doing well.


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I don't agree with your reasoning here at all. adding 5 hands per 100 hands is quite a significant increase. obviously most of your winrate comes from the top 3-4% of hands but just defending a few more +EV hands in the blinds and opening a few more hands in MP or LP can have a significant impact on your winrate.

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See the chart on p.47 of SSH for an example of how quickly hands drop off in EV. What's the area under that curve between the zero crossing and the next highest 4-5% of hands? And can you always be sure you aren't playing some on the right side of the zero crossing?

Obviously this chart is not situational enough to be of real use in choosing your hands, I'm just using it as an example of the general shape that the pre-flop hand strength vs. EV curve will always have in any situation. The marginal hands for any particular situation will always be very tiny in EV, and subject to the possibility that some will actually be on the wrong side of zero.

Improving post-flop is just so much more important, and some of those extra hands will not be +EV at all until this is done.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I am 15/10/2.3 in the Party 10/20 full game and doing well.


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I don't agree with your reasoning here at all. adding 5 hands per 100 hands is quite a significant increase. obviously most of your winrate comes from the top 3-4% of hands but just defending a few more +EV hands in the blinds and opening a few more hands in MP or LP can have a significant impact on your winrate.

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Well I am absolutely horrible in the blinds BB = (.18)BB/hand and sb = (.15)BB/hand, It might be time to play some 1/2 6max for me...

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your sample size is probably way too small to make any judgments about this.

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OH crap ok, MR. Sample Size man! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Not sure how big a sample I need

last ~134K hands, bb=(.23), sb=(.12)

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I am 15/10/2.3 in the Party 10/20 full game and doing well.


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I don't agree with your reasoning here at all. adding 5 hands per 100 hands is quite a significant increase. obviously most of your winrate comes from the top 3-4% of hands but just defending a few more +EV hands in the blinds and opening a few more hands in MP or LP can have a significant impact on your winrate.

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See the chart on p.47 of SSH for an example of how quickly hands drop off in EV. What's the area under that curve between the zero crossing and the next highest 4-5% of hands? And can you always be sure you aren't playing some on the right side of the zero crossing?

Obviously this chart is not situational enough to be of real use in choosing your hands, I'm just using it as an example of the general shape that the pre-flop hand strength vs. EV curve will always have in any situation. The marginal hands for any particular situation will always be very tiny in EV, and subject to the possibility that some will actually be on the wrong side of zero.

Improving post-flop is just so much more important, and some of those extra hands will not be +EV at all until this is done.

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Well, part of the way of getting better is by playing more marginal hands.

I'm not trying to say that it's a 1BB/100++ differencebut i do think that even 0.5BB/100 is a significant increase.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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to stlanty and emperor - don't try to improve your game by aiming for an "optimal" vp$ip. improve your game so that your vp$ip is better. that is just to say, don't try to create situations to increase the number, because this will invariably lead to mistakes (e.g., making bad coldcalls or EP limps w/ the justification that this must be the way to optimalize vpip). figure out which situations you are misplaying preflop, and the proper vp$ip will follow.


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This is the best observation in the entire thread. I see many players falling for this trap. The goal is not to get to some magical VP$IP or PFR by any means necessary. The goal is to make the right play on every street. And as psycho said, once you get there, the stats will follow.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

Simple solution is learn to play shorthand, go play 6max.

Nothing tough about 17/15 that seems a bit tight to me.

At the moment you dont know how to play, you are just your average ABCer rock.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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I guess my question is...what might I be missing?

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Experience? Do you think 3BB/100h 6 tablers are born or do you think they constantly work on they game and try to improve? Your a winning player that's what's important, now try to improve your game.

BTW, I think you are focused to much on preflop play cuz that's the easy part, the big money is made on laydown 2nd best hands when beat and winning showdowns.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

Back to the original question:

I think both good and advanced players win money, but advanced players lose less.

No offense taken.
 

No problem, Kenny. I admit that I do not play real well, and certainly not at an advanced level. I only play part-time for enjoyment only.

TSP

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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MY stats are VERY similar 16/10/1.9 with river being a 1.2 (I miss a lot of value bets)

Honestly I just can't find more hands to play. I play Axs and small pp's from EP when the table is right. I'll open-raise with KQo from UTG, or after limpers. I don't cold call and 3bet with small pocket pairs as much as some people seem to do on here. I have GREAT game selection so I don't really get the opportunity to steal. My att to steal is 44% !!! From the HiJack I am raising all kinds of stuff. I'll isolate maniacs and 80/5/.5 guys with almost any JT or better if everyone else is tight. Have I just been cold decked for 100K hands?

Post flop - I miss value bets and I know this. I also miss turn bets and raises, because if someone semi-bluffs the flop then I am checking and calling A LOT. So I know I am missing some value.

I was a lil looser at 2/4 and was beating it for 2.75BB/100, but at 5/10 and 10/20 I am just scraping by. Everytime I sit in the 15 game I get run over.

Please help.

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fwiw, my stats are 18/12/2.79 (or 2.81, i can't remember). my river agression is 2.5 or so. value betting is huge.

i think 15 or 13 is definately too tight. it makes a difference. and those seeking to be 19/17/2...its just not worth it, that means you are likely missing out on very profitable limping opportunities.

Barron

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

When you're talking fullring stats, are these filtered for 7-10 players, average player 7? 8? I'm confused.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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When you're talking fullring stats, are these filtered for 7-10 players, average player 7? 8? I'm confused.

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those are my full ring stats. on average its about 8 or nine players. where do i get avg player stats? those stats are from my 120k hand 30/60 ring games. I dont play much short handed there b/c 1) not too many games (although i now play SH there when possible), and 2) game quality, and 3) # of tables i can play (i can play more full than SH)

Barron

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

Thanks, I was a bit confused since I play mostly shorthanded but don't mind playing fullring if there are good tables going on.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

Thanks so much for all your replies!!! After reading all your posts....I think DcifrThs hit the nail on the head. Many good players do not value bet marginal hands enough where an advanced player knows when his marginal or even weak hand is best. I think this is a player reading skill...which can be hard when multitabling. I have a tendency to rely on stats...but stats only tell us a portion of what we need to know. So, one missed value bet every 100 hands...well, that's it!!!

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

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Thanks so much for all your replies!!! After reading all your posts....I think DcifrThs hit the nail on the head. Many good players do not value bet marginal hands enough where an advanced player knows when his marginal or even weak hand is best. I think this is a player reading skill...which can be hard when multitabling. I have a tendency to rely on stats...but stats only tell us a portion of what we need to know. So, one missed value bet every 100 hands...well, that's it!!!

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I disagree. In the progression of a poker player thin valuebetting is just an extension of agressive style. Advanced players transcend this and learn how to save bets. It is so much harder and riskier to fold for 1 bet on the river than putting in an extra one (to give one example).

It occurs to me that some of the best players posting in this forum are probably those with the highest percentage of fold advice (James282 and Paluka comes to mind).

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

I think the biggest factor differentiating great players from good players is how lucky they've been lately.

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

interesting

Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?
 

arod, trying to get your post count up? You know you can read and not reply. One word replies with no analysis provide nothing to the discussion. I'm not an internet person, but I think they call this "trolling".

(yes I realise the irony of this post)