I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

This is from the Stars $300 from last saturday. I have been meaning to post this, but I don't have the HH so I need to do it from memory.

Started with about 120, we're down to about 40, 18 paid. I have played with quite a few players at the table before, and have decent reads on them, although I don't know that they have decent reads on me- I would assume so though. The level of play has been pretty good so far, with 1 or 2 sort of donks at the table.

The table has been playing pretty tight, but aggressive. I have about 8000 in my stack, avg is about 7500. Player directly to my left has me slightly covered.

Blinds are 100/200 with a 25 ante. I raise from 3rd or 4th to act with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. (Comments can be made on this obviously, but with relatively deep stacks, I dont think this is too bad at all.) Player directly to my left who has been fairly active, calls. Everyone else folds around.

Flop comes 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. pot: 1700

Having played with this player before, I figure that if I lead out small, he will raise me with almost any 2, seeing me as weak, and when he does this I will push, and therefore put maximum pressure on (hopefully) his missed overs, or middle pair- if he has those.

So I bet out 600, he raises me to some number between 1500, and 2000, I don't recall exactly. I decide to go with my original plan, and I push for ~7000.

Thoughts?

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

ya i always put 40 bb in the pot when i hope my opponent missed. good play bro

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

Nice response. I really liked the way you explained your thoughts. Good post bro.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

With 8000 chips with the blinds at 100/200 and 25 ante, you're stack really isn't that deep. Stricly based off HOH Volume 2, you're M is ~15, which greatly reduces the value of these small suited connectors. If the average stack was 12k or even 16k, then these types of hands would be much better to play.

I don't mind the raise with 65d to try to steal the blinds, but you really want to end this pot as quickly as possible. Playing these types of hands postflop without position is extremely tough.

I personally hate probe bets. I would lead out for 1000-1200 on this flop, hoping to take the pot down here without getting reraised.

Since you have a read that he will raise with 'any 2' after a weak probe bet, do you know if he's capable of laying down a mid pair like 88, 99, 66, 55, or other hands like JT, AT, QT, KT, T9, 89, Ax diamonds in this spot? There are so many hands he could have that you are well behind. And with an active player behind you, I don't think this type of range is unreasonable.

Personally, I would probably fold after his reraise and wait for a better spot. You'll still be in ok shape after laying this down.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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ya i always put 40 bb in the pot when i hope my opponent missed. good play bro

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Lloyd, could you invite this guy to be on the expert panel for the next Hand Analysis exercise? I really like his hard-hitting analysis.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

well, i do have over 1 million in play money on stars. That could ahve easily been real money if i wanted it to be

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

I think I've seen this movie before. It always ends with the villain having something like A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]...

I think if you are going to raise preflop with this hand then you're basically committed to playing it this way if you catch a flush draw or open-ender. I think Hickboy is right that the stacks aren't really deep here, particularly not after you juice the pot with a preflop raise.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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well, i do have over 1 million in play money on stars.

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Sounds like that qualifies you to be an expert commentator. I hope Lloyd includes you in the next panel.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

I like the play, given your read. You have about a 5% chance agaisnt AdTd, but against ATo, you are down about 3-2. With pot odds and folding equity, you have good expectation, particularly if villain is likely to have totally missed the flop.

It is kind of a matter of style, but I am not crazy about the raise with the suited connector unless you have a good chance to steal the blinds. The money is not that deep.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

Personally I like this play. If this guy is "fairly active" it would be tough to put him on a narrow range of hands pre-flop [what was your raise? 3bb?]. Is your image TAG?

Your bet on the flop is weak enough that I would question:

(a) are you trying to get me to bet into a strong hand?
(b) are you trying to take down the pot with a weak continuation bet? [less likely]
(c) are you trying the old "weak, out of position bluff re-raise all-in on a flush draw" play? [Just kidding, my depth of analysis would never put you on the play that you are making]

The only way I can get more information is to raise your weak bet, which I would do with almost any 2 cards.

Your reraise all-in would force an immediate decision and make me fold alot of hands, including TPTK or an overpair.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I made it 3 bbs (600) preflop.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

He is getting 2 to 1 on his draw because you didnt check raise him. Your stack is not big enough here for a reraise all in as you are giving him odds for any draw.


My line would be checkraise all in. That way he can't call unless he has a big pair which he might seeing as he flat called your preflop raise. 77-JJ is likely here as is A10s-AQs. I know he is not tight so his range is probably wider but you get the idea of what I am trying to say I hope.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

i know my line wouldnt have made me go broke [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

well leave myself crippled... at any rate.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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He is getting 2 to 1 on his draw because you didnt check raise him. Your stack is not big enough here for a reraise all in as you are giving him odds for any draw.


My line would be checkraise all in. That way he can't call unless he has a big pair which he might seeing as he flat called your preflop raise. 77-JJ is likely here as is A10s-AQs. I know he is not tight so his range is probably wider but you get the idea of what I am trying to say I hope.

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most people aren't calling with crap here even at 2:1. A good draw, maybe.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

Who says he missed???

I think I prefer the check/raise allin rather than bet/reraise push.

Anyway I had a similiar hand in the 20+2 the other night. Called an UTG raiser with 4c 6c in the BB, early in the tourney. Flop was 5c Ac 2d, I bet out, UTG raised I just called. Turn came a club and I pushed. He called with A2s and proceded to tell how awful my play was.

Hotrod

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

ironically, i was talking about the 10k hand of sossman's we've been discussing the last few days. My statement applies to this thread too actually. thanks.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

Fold preflop?

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

I meant an Ace/King high flush draw calls here a lot. Any pair calls here too. Hero here is determined to push. I think you have more FE if you checkraise all in. that is my point.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

I think you're considering stacks to be deep too early. This is evidenced by the fact that a pf raise, a small bet, a raise, and then a push way for the hand to play out.

You have less than 50 BBs, which while impressive for a tournament, isn't near (IMHO) large enough to make the pf raise reasonable.

Given your read, I think the flop play is fine.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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well, i do have over 1 million in play money on stars. That could ahve easily been real money if i wanted it to be

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I really don't know what to say about this.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

i think you played it great.
i raise their preflop also.
on the flop you set it up so you can put him to the test. and if behind, you are at worst a 2-1 dog (or thereabouts), with the folding equity, that is fine.

I think you played it great, especially with your knowledge of your opponent.

SD

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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Any pair calls here too.

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Do you actually beleive this?

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

I don't mind the pre-flop raise at all as long as it was well-timed:

a) you've been playing pretty tight;
b) you're attacking a medium stack most likely to fold PF;
c) the BB is tight;
d) the players left to act have been folding to pre-flop raises and aren't too loose.

I think I'd prefer a check-raise to a small bet followed by a huge push. Think of it like this, you're trying to represent a big hand. But you make a small bet to make him think you're weak and then push a lot to make him think you're strong. Confusing isn't it? If he thinks you're weak because of the small bet on the flop will he all of a sudden be able to turn around and think "man, I just got trapped". I don't know.

But if you check-raise, that's clearly representing a strong hand. The problem with a check-raise is that what you really want to do is push and put him to a big test. But if you check and he bets, let's say 1,000. The pot is 2,700. Will betting 7,000 look too much like you're on a draw? Yes, a good player would think that a pot sized bet is more than half your stack so it's not unreasonable to push. But you clearly don't have a monster since you wouldn't normally play a set of Ts or an overpair that way.

If you bet 1,000 and he wanted to raise you, you're more than likely facing a push by him. And I'd hate to call off my stack with a 6 high flush draw.

I think the play I prefer the most is to check the flop. If he checks behind you get some information and might improve on the turn. If he bets I'd probably call something reasonable, take a look at the turn, and lead out if I didn't hate it (like an A).

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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Any pair calls here too.

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Do you actually beleive this?

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Let me make this clear. Any pair that called your raise preflop calls this. Like I said 77-JJ call here 100% of the time. I would even call with 44-66. Most of the time I know this kind of all in play with a uncoordinated board means a flush/straight draw overcards that missed.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

I like the play. You are 40:60 against top pair or an overpair and have huge FE against anything else. You won't usually see somebody call a PFR with a T in their hand, and overpairs are just as likely to have re-raised PF as to have called from MP.

I think most of the time you take this down with your re-raise and you still have your 40% draw to fall back on if called. You don't need folds here too often for the play to be +EV.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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I don't mind the pre-flop raise at all as long as it was well-timed:

a) you've been playing pretty tight;
b) you're attacking a medium stack most likely to fold PF;
c) the BB is tight;
d) the players left to act have been folding to pre-flop raises and aren't too loose.

I think I'd prefer a check-raise to a small bet followed by a huge push. Think of it like this, you're trying to represent a big hand. But you make a small bet to make him think you're weak and then push a lot to make him think you're strong. Confusing isn't it? If he thinks you're weak because of the small bet on the flop will he all of a sudden be able to turn around and think "man, I just got trapped". I don't know.

But if you check-raise, that's clearly representing a strong hand. The problem with a check-raise is that what you really want to do is push and put him to a big test. But if you check and he bets, let's say 1,000. The pot is 2,700. Will betting 7,000 look too much like you're on a draw? Yes, a good player would think that a pot sized bet is more than half your stack so it's not unreasonable to push. But you clearly don't have a monster since you wouldn't normally play a set of Ts or an overpair that way.

If you bet 1,000 and he wanted to raise you, you're more than likely facing a push by him. And I'd hate to call off my stack with a 6 high flush draw.

I think the play I prefer the most is to check the flop. If he checks behind you get some information and might improve on the turn. If he bets I'd probably call something reasonable, take a look at the turn, and lead out if I didn't hate it (like an A).

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I agree with this line more than the push. Hero though just saw the flop and was determined to push no matter what. I think you have to evaluate all possible scenarios ie lead out, check, check raise. I don't like hero's line in this hand at all.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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Any pair that called your raise preflop calls this. Like I said 77-JJ call here 100% of the time. I would even call with 44-66. Most of the time I know this kind of all in play with a uncoordinated board means a flush/straight draw overcards that missed.

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How often do you actually see overcards do this? And most solid players would be folding 66 here every time barring a great read on their opponent IMO.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

yea i like it, the check-raise all in would look fishier.. it'll give the other guy worse odds but i think it seems MUCH more likely that you're on a draw... but when you 3-bet all in that seems a lot stronger and i think carries a lot more FE.

These are types of hands i misplay all the time though (or atleast i think i do) i'm never sure how to go about the tiny flush draw. But i think you took a good line here, and it's shame it didn't work (or if it did, congrats)

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

I don't really think this is the kinda play you want in this position. You have a healthy stack, so making this type of risk-reward move now is quite iffy in my opinion. He may be active, but I doubt he is donkish enough to see your raise from MP, call it, then lean on you with the reraise if he has nothing. Your read here probably got you in trouble, as he thinks you will push him off his reraise before you do. I see him calling this instantly, with you being quite far behind.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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Any pair that called your raise preflop calls this. Like I said 77-JJ call here 100% of the time. I would even call with 44-66. Most of the time I know this kind of all in play with a uncoordinated board means a flush/straight draw overcards that missed.

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I see them a lot to my surprise. An all in like this always screams weakness to me. I use to fold to all these all ins before but then one day decided I want to see whta they have so I called with something dumb like AJ. To my surprise KJ was the hand and I won a huge pot. I studied the hand and realized how often this play is used with draws and overcards. Yes sometimes I call and I am wrong. But the last couple of tourneys I have accumulated

How often do you actually see overcards do this? And most solid players would be folding 66 here every time barring a great read on their opponent IMO.

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I see overcards and draws here a lot more lately. I think players are overusing the all in semibluff a lot lately. I by no means am an expert on reading people but if I was villain I call you with AK here too probably. Flame away.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
He may be active, but I doubt he is donkish enough to see your raise from MP, call it, then lean on you with the reraise if he has nothing.

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How is bluff-raising a likely weak CB donkish? I think its the opposite of donkish.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

You can call this with AK but you won't get rich doing it. Even when you're correct about it being a semibluff you're like a 55-45 dog, and often you will be a 75-25 dog or even worse. The pot is offering 2:1 odds so I'd imagine calling with ace high is marginal at best.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

I think hero is chipspewing.

It's hard to believe that hero hit that flop hard, so the probe bet looks mostly like I have a draw or overs. Its unlikely that hero would price villain in with such a small bet if he had a T.

After villain raises giving you the incorrect odds to draw to the flush you need to put him on a range of hands. You are about 55% against overs and about a 1:2 dog against any pair 77++. Villain is priced in to call against all of them if you push.

I don't know how much hero has been playing, but its likely that his opening range is pretty wide (to include 56s), and less likely that hero has an overpair making a call more probable.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

"You can call this with AK but you won't get rich doing it. Even when you're correct about it being a semibluff you're like a 55-45 dog, and often you will be a 75-25 dog or even worse. The pot is offering 2:1 odds so I'd imagine calling with ace high is marginal at best."
<font color="blue"> </font>
Exactly.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think hero is chipspewing.

It's hard to believe that hero hit that flop hard, so the probe bet looks mostly like I have a draw or overs. Its unlikely that hero would price villain in with such a small bet if he had a T.

After villain raises giving you the incorrect odds to draw to the flush you need to put him on a range of hands. You are about 55% against overs and about a 1:2 dog against any pair 77++. Villain is priced in to call against all of them if you push.

I don't know how much hero has been playing, but its likely that his opening range is pretty wide (to include 56s), and less likely that hero has an overpair making a call more probable.

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well, I hope most of the people in this thread play against me sometime soon. The free chips will be awful handy.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

which side were you on bugstud? i can't decide if you were disagreeing with the quote, or w/ the rest of the posters.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

Okay, it's a table full of TAGs and deep-ish stacks, with one active guy to your left, and you raise 65s in EMP. You're right, it's not horrible, but that's an interesting assumption (you saying they're TAGs and then assuming you can outplay them OOP.)

So you decide to outplay Active Boy and underbet the flop so you can 3 bet. Right there, when you, a TAG, underbet the flop into another thinking player, he knows you either have AA or absolutely nothing and a 3 bet won't change anything. If it was me you were playing against, I would beat you into the pot and be mildly pissed when I saw the flush draw because I was only at 67%.

Now bet the same 1000 you'd normally bet with anything. See how this hand changes when he raises you to 2500 and you still push?

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

If hero checkraised or check/called, it might look like a flush draw. Hero misrepresented his hand by raising preflop. The way hero played the flop, he continued to represent TT-AA, consistent with his preflop play. This made the play partcularly effective.

Maybe villain will call with JJ or ATs or something, but hero is OK as long as villain doesn't have a flush draw or a set.

Villain likely has overcards, an underpair, a suited connector, or something, and has totally missed the flop, in which case hero wins a big pot without a showdown.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, it's a table full of TAGs and deep-ish stacks, with one active guy to your left, and you raise 65s in EMP. You're right, it's not horrible, but that's an interesting assumption (you saying they're TAGs and then assuming you can outplay them OOP.)

So you decide to outplay Active Boy and underbet the flop so you can 3 bet. Right there, when you, a TAG, underbet the flop into another thinking player, he knows you either have AA or absolutely nothing and a 3 bet won't change anything. If it was me you were playing against, I would beat you into the pot and be mildly pissed when I saw the flush draw because I was only at 67%.

Now bet the same 1000 you'd normally bet with anything. See how this hand changes when he raises you to 2500 and you still push?

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I completely agree (and I believe I stated this above) that the weak bet and raise is the worst of the 3 options for exactly what you've said. My concern with betting 1000 is that we might be looking at a push. At the very least, if we push after a raise to 2500 or so he'd be getting very good odds. So what do you think of that line versus check-call, lead on the turn?

I think this is actually a fairly interesting hand because of the stack sizes.

Re: I have a flush draw! (Stars $300 hand)
 

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My concern with betting 1000 is that we might be looking at a push.

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That was the main reason why I bet so small, so I could 3 bet with folding equity.