QQ on a coordinated board
 

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

With the checks around to me, this seems to be an auto bet. bring the diamond draws along for the ride...agree?

Turn: (6.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Obviously playing this limit the vilain will have a Jack every once in a while. with the check into me i feel i need to bet again against any draws. Without getting check raised, its safe to say he doesnt have a jack.

River: (8.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>


Easily the worst card that can fall at that point. What is the play if
A) vilain checks
B) vilain bets

Thanks for the input

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

Do you have any reads on MP1?

I am not a big fan of checking through on the River at .5/1 - my limited experience is that players will call you down with anything, including missed draws and give you an extra bet. I think that I would have to make an exception here - this board is just too menacing - you are looking at both overcards to your QQ, a three-flush, a three-straight...it really doesn't get worse then this. If we assume a "Milleresque" hand range for our Villain, then he would hold:

A9s-A2s, KJs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s-98s, AT, KQo-KJo, 88-22

It's really tough to narrow this down as he has not shown us anything other than a desire to call. If he has a weak hand (88-22 for instance) he obviously won't be showing aggression and if he is holding somethin nasty like KJo he could be waiting (incorrectly) for the river to check raise.

Even listing the broad hand range I have here we are at 45% equity (note this does not assume that his suited cards are diamonds - making this assumption our equity would drop even lower).

So given the above information if he checks I check through since I am looking to win 1 or lose 2. I figure I will lose two because:

If he bets I make a crying call as the pot will be giving us 9.25:1, so we only have to win 10% of the time (our odds would be 11.25:1 if we are calling his check-raise).

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

A) Check behind
B) Call and expect to lose.

I think you just have the pot odds here to make a call profitable, but most of the time you are well behind.

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

sorry about the reads. this was my 4th hand at this table. vilain had played 1. had about 10 hands on him previous. 18 vpip 0 pfr. so nothing to really go on

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

does everyone agree with the turn play? i can see reasoning why checking through would be reasonable, but would that be correct? the pot is heads up at this point

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

[ QUOTE ]
A) Check behind
B) Call and expect to lose.

I think you just have the pot odds here to make a call profitable, but most of the time you are well behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
ED ZACHARY!
And as for the turn. I play it the same.
BWWIK

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

[ QUOTE ]
does everyone agree with the turn play? i can see reasoning why checking through would be reasonable, but would that be correct? the pot is heads up at this point

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you need to bet this turn. You have no real reason to believe you're behind yet, you want to extract money from him now if he's drawing, and you will frequently get a free showdown if you want it.

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

If villian bets it's an easy call. You get 9:1 on a call and expect villian to bluff more often than that.
If villian checks I would check through, the reason is that a bet would expose me to a raise which I would then have to call. As I think we are behind more than 50% of the time I think a bet is EV-

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

He played this hand pretty passively so if he donked the river I think we're beat. We're getting 9.25:1 on a call so we need to be sure like 89% of the time. If the Ace hadn't come I'd bet into a passive player if he checked, but since it did come and it was diamond, I might check. I'm not sure what the standard would be without reads though.

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

Without a read I call a river donk. There aren't too many hands a sane villain calls the turn bet with that don't beat you by the river. A fold may be better here, but I probably have to call for my own piece of mind.

Check through if checked.

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

A) Check behind, he's not calling a bet with anyting we beat.
B) Call.

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

[ QUOTE ]
A) Check behind, he's not calling a bet with anyting we beat.
B) Call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A) Check behind
B) Call and expect to lose.

I think you just have the pot odds here to make a call profitable, but most of the time you are well behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
ED ZACHARY!
And as for the turn. I play it the same.
BWWIK

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed Zachary??

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

** grunch **

If villian checks, I check.
If villian bets, I call.

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

Ok here is the river action:


River: (8.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP1 has Tc Td (two pair, jacks and tens).
Hero has Qh Qd (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.25 BB. </font>

Now this hand really made me think, both during and after. During the hand, I kept telling myself to play it as the 2+2ers would tell me to. It got to the river and I hesitated just a second, but couldn't put him on a K or J since he hadn't shown anything to make me think otherwise. If I bet this and he raises, I am beat, plain and simple. I don't even know if I would make the call. Maybe my poker instinct was really good for this one hand. I would have to imagine this play is -EV in the long run. Anyway, the fact that he called me shows the kind of donkage that runs wild through the micro's.

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

I can't think of an easier fold if Villain bets the river into you on this board. How can you call? Betting the river is very bad IMO and I'm still not sold on the turn; the plethora of draws makes it a bit tough.

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not sold on the turn; the plethora of draws makes it a bit tough.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would rather check the turn, giving infinite odds to anyone drawing against us?

If you do this, are you calling a river bet (since we've now possibly induced a bluff)?

Re: QQ on a coordinated board
 

That's my point. With the diamond draw and possible straight draws on the board we really hate giving free cards. But QQ on a KJJ board isn't something I love to have, and if he called with 7x where x isn't an ace, he only has two outs.