Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

I recently hit my 5000th sng played. I was actually kind of shocked to see some of my hand percentages and other misc data I have accumulated with poker tracker and sng tracker.

1. My percentages with the top tier hands is low

Hand occurrences win%

a/a 927 73.58
k/k 906 68.63
q/q 864 76.39
j/j 777 56.57
t/t 849 59.43
9/9 837 57.84
8/8 825 59.49
7/7 885 50.00
6/6 810 42.86
5/5 894 27.52
4/4 804 30.60
3/3 846 25.53
2/2 870 22.76

a/ks 498 57.35
a/ko 1683 58.70
a/qs 552 57.07
a/qo 1791 46.90


Any observations, comments, or suggestions here?

My guess for when the data, mainly a/a and k/k, becomes more accurate is a simple one. When the occurrences between like hands gets closer in occurrences then the percentage should be more accurate. Is that proper thinking? And if not at what point is it very (within 1% or so) accurate?

2. ITM and ROI question


Over the first few hundred sngs my ITM was way up and down, understandably. Since approx the 1000th game played it is basically a flat line at 41.5%. But my roi seems awful low for that ITM range. ROI is at 10%. SNGS played are between 10's and 100's (200's to little played to gauge anything other than I ran good for the 5 I played in)

Game played ITM

10's 1344 39.76
20's 800 39.20
30's 1770 45.19
50's 853 42.05
100's 228 29.41
200's 5 100.00

My guess is that my insane down swing I had during my 100 stint is overall killing my ROI that I am making in the 30/50 level. Or is it because of my a/a and k/k being lower than they should be on win rate over the 5000 played? Or guess it could be a combination of both.

Should I be making multi databases when I do sng tracker? One for each lvl of play, because as of now other than manually going through every tournament I have no way of figuring ROI at each buy in. I know poker tracker does that, but I still to this day have not figured out how to use yahoo mail and get the hand histories out of there, hehe.

One more note to anyone that is starting out. A few things I learned along the way.

1. It isn't rigged
2. Cashing out does nada to your account
3. Play at your bankroll - and be disciplined about it. I play at 50x my bankroll. So if I have 5k in the account I play a 100 etc. If I cash out I go back down in game. But that is just my preference.
4. Control your emotions. I was that guy you saw constantly going on about bad beats, it is rigged; you suck, on and on and on. It accomplished nothing except making my self mad and not playing well. Plus it carried over to my personal life. It seemed like I was constantly on edge after I started playing poker. It took me a good 6 months of my 1 year stint online to learn this lesson. And it is by far and away the most valuable I have learned.

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

are these hand win percentages win-at-showdown, or overall win-pot?

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

u can make filters in sng tracker for each buyin level

get your roi/itm separately for each buy-in

u can have a -roi with 40%itm if all of your itms are 3rds...the higher your roi/itm ratio, the more your finishes lean toward 1st instead of 3rd

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

haha.... i thought after the wcoop winner thread, this thread was are asking "are the 5k sng's played enough" with bad grammar.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

over all win percentage, not at showdown. Showdown is less for every hand for obvious reasons.

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

yeah that was one thing I forgot to put in the post.

1st 14.3%
2nd 12.4%
3rd 14.8%

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

just glancing at your results with AA and KK--- is it possible that you might be playing too many multi-way pots with them?

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

How long did it take you to play 5000 games and how many at a time do you/did you play?

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

started my PP account on Oct 4th of 04. But only played a few a day 1 table at a time for my first few months. Once I got the bankroll and what I felt was the skill for the 30's I made a run at the leader board for July of 05. Played 4 at a time for no less than 4 hours a day in the 30's and 50's for almost every day of the month. Also played a lot of MTT's that month. Ended up making 29th that month on the leaderboard.

So I would guess that probably 4k of them were played between May of 05 to current.

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

maybe, but my PF raise percentage with them is at 88% and 85% respectively.

I will occasionally limp with them from UTG or even UTG+1 sometimes if the table warrents that. Also short handed will limp if aggressive player still to act. HU will limp or just call quite a bit with them. Actually don't have a problem folding either of them now a days if I raise them up PF and get multi callers, once again in the right situation.

Just mainly wondering at what point (hands played and/or sngs played) the data becomes more "real"? And if it is already real, then obviously I have some adjustments to make.

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

a) raise aa pf
b) don't ever fold aa pf

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah that was one thing I forgot to put in the post.

1st 14.3%
2nd 12.4%
3rd 14.8%

JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems like a great distribution.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should I be making multi databases when I do sng tracker? One for each lvl of play, because as of now other than manually going through every tournament I have no way of figuring ROI at each buy in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can accomplish this in SNG tracker using filters. I have a filter for every buy-in level. You can also use it to filter for dates and other criteria.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah that was one thing I forgot to put in the post.

1st 14.3%
2nd 12.4%
3rd 14.8%

JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems like a great distribution.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah, it's 25.7% roi at the 10% rake tourneys...did u read about outrageous 35% rois somewhere? or does your roi show as lower than 25% because of losing more at higher stakes and winning more at lower stakes, thus lowering your roi?


do a filter by level to see your roi by level...

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It isn't rigged

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the funniest thing i have read here this week. congrats on the success man.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

actually I have folded a/a PF once and once only. And I would do this again if the situation came up again.

PP 10+1 million dollar qualifier. MTT top 4 win seats.

5 players left

stacks are approx as this was about 6 months ago

ME 80k
player 1 100k
player 2 45k
player 3 45k
player 4 30k

blinds are 3000/6000

I get dealt a/a in the bb. Player 2 pushes, player 3 calls. I fold. It was t/t vs k/k. The two stacks were not exact but within 2k of each other.

Neither hand improved btw so I would have won, but way I looked at it I won already by folding them.


JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

He had a low ITM at the 100 level, which obviously brought down the overall ROI.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

Is my math correct: you won a bit over $16K over 500 SNGs?

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah that was one thing I forgot to put in the post.

1st 14.3%
2nd 12.4%
3rd 14.8%

JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it's probably just that your bad results at 109 are counting for more (per tournament) than your good results at 55 and lower. At a single buy-in, this distribution would result in a much higher ROI than the 10% you say you have.

It sounds like you already know this, but if it helps to have someone confirm that, there you go.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know poker tracker does that, but I still to this day have not figured out how to use yahoo mail and get the hand histories out of there, hehe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, here's what I do to import to PT. I play at Eurobet and Multipoker. Eurobet HH import is ok since you access the HH in their E-Message thing where you get them in the right format. Now, multipoker sends the HH to my yahoo mail in a messed up format that cannot be imported. What i do is just leave the table open till the SNG finishes and import it from the file on my hard drive and now it imports it fine.

I hope this helps.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually I have folded a/a PF once and once only. And I would do this again if the situation came up again.

PP 10+1 million dollar qualifier. MTT top 4 win seats.

5 players left

stacks are approx as this was about 6 months ago

ME 80k
player 1 100k
player 2 45k
player 3 45k
player 4 30k

blinds are 3000/6000

I get dealt a/a in the bb. Player 2 pushes, player 3 calls. I fold. It was t/t vs k/k. The two stacks were not exact but within 2k of each other.

Neither hand improved btw so I would have won, but way I looked at it I won already by folding them.


JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one that thinks that you should call this? I mean, you're not in danger, they could split, plus you would have to lose to both players.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

only have to lose 1 player, 5 left top 4 make it.

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

thx, yeah that is what I was looking for. Figured that is what it was but just wanted to make sure.

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

Well that would work to, actually really good idea. Only problem for me with this is. I don't start up 4 then play them all out until I have no tournaments going then start another 4. Once I am out of one I instantly start up another. So I always have 4 going.

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is my math correct: you won a bit over $16K over 500 SNGs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think you meant 5000, but yeah very close. Actually pop'd $2700 for a 2nd in a 30 mtt and 4 other final tables in other misc mtts, that had payouts ranging from $100 to $800. So it is more than 16k.

Also cashed in the January million guaranteed for $1250 (huge luck). I dont' have an ROI figure for my MTT's but am guessing it to be fairy good.

All in all very happy with my first year played online. Went through sick downs and sick ups. Think the difference between the two is you don't remember when you get there as often as you do when you don't.

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually I have folded a/a PF once and once only. And I would do this again if the situation came up again.

PP 10+1 million dollar qualifier. MTT top 4 win seats.

5 players left

stacks are approx as this was about 6 months ago

ME 80k
player 1 100k
player 2 45k
player 3 45k
player 4 30k

blinds are 3000/6000

I get dealt a/a in the bb. Player 2 pushes, player 3 calls. I fold. It was t/t vs k/k. The two stacks were not exact but within 2k of each other.

Neither hand improved btw so I would have won, but way I looked at it I won already by folding them.


JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure calling is the correct option here. If you call, the only way you're in any trouble is if both of them have the same hand and they beat you. This is going to happen about 1-2% of the time. If you fold and they both have the same hand, you've just jeopardized your chances of making the seat. Just a thought.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

that isn't a sng with sng .5/.3/.2 payout structure, so doesn't count

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

If the higher of the 2 of them wins the main pot, the small stack busts anyway. If the lower of the two of them wins but you win the 2k sidepot, he busts and you win a seat. You highly increase the chances of one of them busting since one could be left with 2k. You are in no danger of busting. If you lose to both hands and the small stack wins the main pot, the other guy still only has 4k. and you still have over 3.5BB, not really in danger. Basically if you call there's an extremely high chance that it ends on this hand and even if it doesn't you can still fold to the win over 90% of the time.

If they had you covered it's a clear fold. Since you have them covered comfortably, calling or folding doesn't make much difference.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually I have folded a/a PF once and once only. And I would do this again if the situation came up again.

PP 10+1 million dollar qualifier. MTT top 4 win seats.

5 players left

stacks are approx as this was about 6 months ago

ME 80k
player 1 100k
player 2 45k
player 3 45k
player 4 30k

blinds are 3000/6000

I get dealt a/a in the bb. Player 2 pushes, player 3 calls. I fold. It was t/t vs k/k. The two stacks were not exact but within 2k of each other.

Neither hand improved btw so I would have won, but way I looked at it I won already by folding them.


JJ

[/ QUOTE ]


hijacked your own thread!!*!(*$!

btw nice stats

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont' have an ROI figure for my MTT's but am guessing it to be fairy good.

[/ QUOTE ]I wonder how many players who focus on SNGs also dabble in MTT and whether their winnings in MTT represent a significant portion of their income.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont' have an ROI figure for my MTT's but am guessing it to be fairy good.

[/ QUOTE ]I wonder how many players who focus on SNGs also dabble in MTT and whether their winnings in MTT represent a significant portion of their income.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess about 80%....hehe. Not actually a guess. I had poker prophecy when it use to work on PP. In mtt's at least 8 out of 10 had prophecy stats which is sng based.

JJ

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont' have an ROI figure for my MTT's but am guessing it to be fairy good.

[/ QUOTE ]I wonder how many players who focus on SNGs also dabble in MTT and whether their winnings in MTT represent a significant portion of their income.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're a very good SNG players its likely that SNGs are much more profitable for you than MTTs because of multitabeling. MTTs are a lot of fun though.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

2 Questions:

1. Why the dramatic drop in your % at the $100 limit? Are the players just that much stronger?

2. How many tournaments do you think you need to play before your ITM and ROI numbers can be considered accurate. (I've only played about 20 at each of the 10 and 20 dollar tournaments and I don't trust my numbers yet.)

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

For your first post ever you dig up this old thread?!?

Who are you?

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

He is a supercomputer, reason enough!

And supercomputer, he has a very low ITM% at the 100's because he ran bad there. Even if he sucked, that ITM% would still be very low. The sample size is too small.

I'd say after 1000 SnG's your stats start to mean something, but if you ran incredibly hot for 100 SnG's for example, your stats would still change a lot.

And this is basic FAQ stuff I think.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

"than MTTs because of multitabeling."

What's stopping you from 4tabling??

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

Haha. I found this thread by googling ITM and ROI.

I live in Austin, TX and I've been playing online for about a year. I just turned into a winning player a couple of months ago, so I started an xl spreadsheet to track my stats.

100 tournaments = ~ 5000 hands of poker. That seems like too many to consider it a "run of bad luck."

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

I think you're replying to me.

Welcome.

5,000 SNGs is a very large sample. 100 SNGs is a very small sample. Everyone who has played thousands of SNGs has lost money over 100 of them and has had sky high returns as well.

Re: Is 5k sng\'s played enough?
 

After reading several other topics on this, including the FAQ's, that seems to be the consensus. I'm still skeptical, however.