Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Stars 11+rebuy 45k guaranteed earlier this evening. Hero is 3rd in chips with roughly 120 people remaining. Pot odds kept me in this. Help on all streets appreciated.

The only read I have is that MP2 minraises with a wide range of hands. Less than an orbit before he had minraised with 78s to 8000, then called another 20,000 allin from a shortstack.

-cj

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t4000 (8 handed) converter

UTG (t41525)
UTG+1 (t128199)
MP1 (t106772)
MP2 (t124003)
CO (t67490)
Hero (t218914)
SB (t24687)
BB (t80885)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t8000</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t8000, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t24487</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t16487, Hero calls t16487.

Flop: (t74661) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t50000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t99316</font>, Hero calls t49316.

Turn: (t273293) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

River: (t273293) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Final Pot: t273293

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP2 has 3d 3h (full house, threes full of fives).
Hero has Jc Td (two pair, jacks and fives).
SB has 5s Ah (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: MP2 wins t273293. </font>

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Why would you call preflop with this?

Nick

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Fold to the first raise, fold to the second raise.


I wouldn't even call just the BB w/ this.

suited and i would though.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Because I'm on the button, big stack, Villain (raiser) has minraised several times since I've been moved to the table and the only hand he's shown has been 78s. Something wrong with this?

-cj

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because I'm on the button, big stack, Villain (raiser) has minraised several times since I've been moved to the table and the only hand he's shown has been 78s. Something wrong with this?

-cj

[/ QUOTE ]

No really, fold.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Yes. Fold preflop. Or raise. Calling is not good.

Nick

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

seriously? I can see folding to the first raise, but the second ... I'm getting 3 to 1 to make that call.

-cj

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Alright, so either fold or raise ... I can buy that. But could you explain why just calling is a bad idea?

-cj

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

but you can't even play for top pair.. you're really looking for two pair or better here... and odds against that are 29:1 for non suited, non connectors... dunno for conneectors, but can't be considerably better, probably 22 or 25:1

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because I'm on the button, big stack, Villain (raiser) has minraised several times since I've been moved to the table and the only hand he's shown has been 78s. Something wrong with this?

-cj

[/ QUOTE ]

No really, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, care to explain? I've given reasons for calling -- at least explain why you disagree with those reasons.

-cj

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

[ QUOTE ]
but you can't even play for top pair.. you're really looking for two pair or better here... and odds against that are 29:1 for non suited, non connectors... dunno for conneectors, but can't be considerably better, probably 22 or 25:1

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, and the difference between suited and offsuit isn't that great here either. Yet you'd call if it was suited, and not offsuit. Why?

I'm not really playing for just top pair -- but I also have position. let's say the flop comes jack high, minraiser makes a continuation bet, I raise or call ... i find out pretty quickly where I am, and don't put much into the pot with TPWK.

I don't think I would have run into many serious problems with my call here if shortstack hadn't pushed, creating a large pot that got me to come along because of the 3:1 odds I was offered. So let's say I make the mistake of calling the minraise preflop -- do I really fold getting such good odds? if so, why?

-cj

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

The second raise is a really easy fold because even though you're getting great odds, you're in a shitty spot, between a LAGgy minraiser and a shorty. More importantly, both have shown strength, so you don't know what cards help you and could easily end up spewing (or just folding a monstrous % of flops, which is also bad). In effect, your implied odds are negative here because you've got a crappy situation to play this hand in.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Well i think thre is a big differencec between suited and nonsuited.. you know to get away when you dont get atleast two of your suit. So you don't lose more when you don't hit. Playing it for less than two pair (like you did on the flop, for all your chips) gets you in bad situations...


When i said i'd play it if it were suited, i was talking about calling just the BB.... i don't play JTo often.. usually only in LP after a limper or two, or as a steal when it's folded to me.

I don't play JTs to a raise normally either.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

The flop was bad, but there was a reason I bet it (not just because I overplay top pair). Villain could have a wide range of hands, but his mere call of the preflop reraise makes me think he doesn't have a PP &gt; 88. There were 2 diamonds on the flop and he checked it to me I can't see him doing this with any hand that hit the flop ... they have to bet because they expect to be ahead and there's a flush draw out there. So my read was the flop didn't help, but if my hand is good, there are a lot of cards that could be bad for me on the turn/river. I actually just figured he'd fold and I'd be in good shape against shorty.

So sure, I didn't figure he hit his set, and the pot was so large that I don't think I can fold to his reraise. But in my defense, he caught a great flop. He hit his set, I hit top pair and there was a draw so I had to bet it. Smaller flop bet? Should I fold to a reraise?

-cj

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

i don't have a problem w/ your flop play... just Preflop you got yourself into a bad situation, and it all would have been saved if you just folded when it got to you.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Flops Suck. Flops Suck. Flops Suck. especially with what is ultimately a TROUBLE HAND. FOLD PREFLOP. THERE IS NO DEBATE HERE.

When you are chip leader, that does not widen your calling standards really. It gives you the ability to RERAISE if you know the raiser, but I have spent so much money this way. BE TIGHT PREFLOP. NOTHING WRONG WITH PICKING SPOTS.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

I have the exact some problem, and they're correct. Big stacks let you control the table, but they don't let you make stupid calls. It lets you have more fold equity against non shortstacked people, though. Fold preflop, wait for better spots to stick your money in.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

The mere fact that you went broke with top pair here is a justification for folding preflop... You wouldn't be sucked in if you folded.

I would much rather take a flop with 67s or 22, than JTo.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

If you want to punish the guy who minraises lots of hands, reraise preflop.
If you play preflop as you did I probably check it down. With an all in there's no worth in bluffing a dry side pot, and you bet so much that you committed yourself with a mediocre hand. If I do bet the flop, it's not nearly as much as you did-- and DEFINITELY enough that I can get away from it against real strength.

Using a big stack effectively means attacking where you sense weakness, not widening your raising and calling standards and willingness to put people all-in with mediocre holdings.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

I THINK I'd have folded preflop to the reraise.

That said, I definitely would have check-folded the flop ... Top pair.weak kicker isn't what you were looking for in this hand. You were looking for two pair or a straight.

Being the big stack means you can take chances to increase your stack even more without crippling yourself. Better luck next time.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

[ QUOTE ]
Using a big stack effectively means attacking where you sense weakness, not widening your raising and calling standards and willingness to put people all-in with mediocre holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to reiterate. This is a very common misplay- not necessarily the pre-flop call, but the inappropriate widening of calling/playing req's. I just made a similar mistake [ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

UTG (t1206)
UTG+1 (t1400)
MP1 (t1580)
MP2 (t10010)
MP3 (t4650)
CO (t5580)
Button (t2444)
Hero (t5530)
BB (t9216)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, K.
UTG calls t200, 1 fold, MP1 calls t200, 4 folds, Hero raises to t800, 1 fold, UTG raises to t1206, MP1 raises to t1580, Hero calls t780.

Flop: (t4566) T, 2, J (3 players)

Turn: (t4566) A (3 players)

River: (t4566) Q (3 players)

Final Pot: t4566


[/ QUOTE ] raising a limped short stack with a mediocre holding with zero fold equity. I ended up taking a race against two short stacks and put my above average stack in unnecessary jeopardy, just because I thought I had enough "extra chips" to afford a race and thought they might fold. Silly, really.

I also agree with the Chief when he says raise or fold. We really want to be putting our laggy friend to a decision for all of his chips, eventually. Calling doesn't give us any leverage. And I'm not sure this is the spot.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Yeah, I pulled something similar in the UB 125k a couple weeks ago (although I did eventually get it in with the best hand). Cost me my big stack and probably a run at the final table (I busted 37th).
You still have to respect strength, because people KNOW they can double through you on their strong hands.

The major power of the big stack is being able to put your opponents to difficult decisions with relative impunity.
In OP's hand he didn't put any pressure on the other guy until he had already flopped a set, at which point there is no difficult decision.

Re: Need help not losing my chips when I have a big stack
 

Like others have said, this is a pretty bad limp. This is a clear raise or fold situation.

Consider if you had reraised preflop, representing a major hand. Would small blind still push with A5 into a raise and reraise? Maybe, but it's a bad decision. If he does, there is no way that the EP raiser stays in with 33 with you left to act, and you take down the pot (in this specific scenario).

Now let's say the SB is smart and folds to the raise and reraise. Will the EP raiser call your reraise with 33? Maybe, but again, probably not, it would be a pretty awful call on his part.

The real reason to raise preflop here is to get the EP raiser to fold, as would be the likely outcome in this specific case. Raising also carries with it the added benefit of giving you more information should he decide to call. Showing a lot of strength preflop makes it easier for you to get away from marginal hands like top pair, weak kicker post flop, because if the EP raiser demonstrates a willingness to go all the way with you after the flop despite the fact that you have represented AA-JJ, AK-AJ, you can more safely put him on a major hand. True, there are times when he has nothing more than a draw, but at least you have more information for which to make your final decision.

The best decision, however, as others have said, would be to fold preflop. You have a nice stack with a lot of time left to play, which gives you two luxuries: you are able to be more selective about the hands you play, and when you play speculative hands, you are able to be more aggressive with them (i.e. always raising instead of calling).