50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

50/100 party 8 handed at the time. Haven't played much with villain. He's a 16/8/1.2 or so. Don't recall any hands vs him.

I raise K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] utg, he 3 bets in the CO, all fold, i call.

Flop J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] rainbow, I check/call.

Turn 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I check call

River 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I check, he thinks for 3 seconds and bets, I ?

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

I personally have no idea. But i'm glad you posted a hand like this, because this exact type of situation is what i feel i'm having a litle trouble adapting to in the 50 game, i never know if they continue to bet worse hands here.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

Close one I call. Do you think 9-9 is a decent possiblilty? Would he three bet KQs? Does he check AK behind.

I am wondering now if a fold is better-I call but that might be a leak of mine.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

To the muck.
-James

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

the reason you are unsure of what to do on the river here is because you didnt put in more action on an earlier street to better define his hand.

also preflop: i would guess you will get 3 bet too often in this game, so folding preflop is the strongest play. i think youd be better off raising 87s utg if you feel the need to vary your play, or even just gambool up.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

Is there any merit to betting this river?

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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the reason you are unsure of what to do on the river here is because you didnt put in more action on an earlier street to better define his hand.

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Defining his hand will cost just as much as check calling down, and we might not even get to showdown. If we check-raise the flop and get 3 bet, or donk the turn and get raised, we are going to put in a similar amount of money without the possibility of improving o seeing showdown. Thus i'm not sure i agree this is a situation where we need to define his hand as much as we need to give ourselves a chance to improve and by the time the river gets there...play poker!

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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Is there any merit to betting this river?

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No, good players will value raise AJ and better usually.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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the reason you are unsure of what to do on the river here is because you didnt put in more action on an earlier street to better define his hand.

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I'm not that unsure, I just think a lot of people misplay this type of hand. I think I put in plenty of money and his betting defined his hand pretty well. The 3 bet, followed by betting every street rules out 99 pretty well, and the only hand I beat is AK and most players with those types of stats aren't good enough or aren't capable of thinking about betting the river with AK and aren't going to very often. His 1.2 aggression makes me think he's not firing it again. I also am almost sure this type of player doesn't 3 bet me there pre-flop with AQ.

I just play so much short-handed I'm used to making mid pair, putting in some action and seeing the showdown, like you talked about. But given this was full table, I was UTG, he was not a monkey, makes the check/call, check/call, check/fold line by far the best IMO. I just didn't want to give it away so early but may as well post my thouhgts I guess.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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the reason you are unsure of what to do on the river here is because you didnt put in more action on an earlier street to better define his hand.

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I like the checkcall on flop and turn. Checkraise will not necessarily define the other guy's hand and he may even give you misleading info i.e. 3 bet with AK/AQ given the JT combo on the flop which gives him a perceived 10 outs.

Plus, by checkcalling, you got him right where you want him if he has AK i.e. reverse domination.

I am not so crazy about the preflop UTG openraise although in many ways, it's better to raise UTG with KTs instead of KQs given that the open raise presumably causes hands like KJ and KT to fold.

On the river, it's player dependant (and I can't remember his stats from BK's OP). But generally, if you don't know the guy, look him up.

ok i think i figured it out
 

i added more to my post.

anyway it's not a very good flop for hero. if a K comes will hero like it a lot? a Q? an A? a 9? this flop is pretty troublesome. what if hero bets each street until raised and then check-folds the next street barring improvement? oh he could bet-fold that turn as well. but let's say he bets the flop and gets raised, he can check-fold the turn. sometimes AK and AQ will take the free card there.

yes im pretty sure that's the way to play this. check-call, check-call just doesnt work here. either you find out youre ahead and make him pay (or put him to the test or give him a free card or whatever) or find out youre beat and dont chase when youre not sure what youre chasing for (classic reverse implied odds disaster time). but dont check-call thus representing AQ and letting him have his way with you. when you do that you have to call the river, and i think you can save a fraction of a bet in there somewhere when you find out youre beat earlier.

edited a little to moan about preflop n/m
 

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Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

"No, good players will value raise AJ and better usually."

in which case you fold, but if he has AK or AQ or 77 or 99 or whatever you get paid sometimes. i think betting the river is strong if you make the mistake of check-calling the flop and turn and feel compelled to put in exactly one more bet. it's better than check-call.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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To the muck.

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Disagree. I'd be much more inclined to muck if he bet in rhythm, but the 3-second wait by this kind of player against BK's kind of player is so often a false false-tell. I'd call and expect to see KQ/AQ 25-50% of the time. I guess I could 99 or even 77 in there too, but AK isn't betting here.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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To the muck.

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Disagree. I'd be much more inclined to muck if he bet in rhythm, but the 3-second wait by this kind of player against BK's kind of player is so often a false false-tell. I'd call and expect to see KQ/AQ 25-50% of the time. I guess I could 99 or even 77 in there too, but AK isn't betting here.

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25-50%? You're in la la land. An 8 pfr isn't even 3 betting KQo here, probably not even KQs. Betting the river, however, is compelling. I still think a check-fold is better than a check-call by a fairly wide margin.
-James

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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"No, good players will value raise AJ and better usually."

in which case you fold, but if he has AK or AQ or 77 or 99 or whatever you get paid sometimes. i think betting the river is strong if you make the mistake of check-calling the flop and turn and feel compelled to put in exactly one more bet. it's better than check-call.

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I have not played in a online game yet (and i admit to never playing higher than 50-100, so this isnt universally true) where players don't make silly errors in terms of bluffing or value betting a worse hand here to make not seeing showdown an option on the river assuming you are putting in one bet. Basically i feel if we are going to put in a bet, lets [censored] showdown the hand. There are so few worse hands that will call bets here, and let's not put ourselves in a sitatuion where we can get bluff raised, it doesn't havta happen very often to [censored] you. I definitly pop the river from time to time after someone donks it with this action.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

hmmm...

I'm shocked that I of all people am the first to mention this, since i'm normally a nit. 16VPIP is pretty snug. Do you have any info on his fold river %, or fold to c/r %? I'm wondering if the pause was deciding to make a value bet (that he considers thin) with an overpair or a strong J. If so, is he tight enough to fold to a c/r? I know online this sort of move usually won't work, but your hand does look somewhat like a b/d flush draw (unless you'd normally c/r the turn and he knows that).

Thoughts?

lf

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

I like check-call, check-call, check-fold.

Unless you got something from the pause on the river, that is the best line.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm...

I'm shocked that I of all people am the first to mention this, since i'm normally a nit. 16VPIP is pretty snug. Do you have any info on his fold river %, or fold to c/r %? I'm wondering if the pause was deciding to make a value bet (that he considers thin) with an overpair or a strong J. If so, is he tight enough to fold to a c/r? I know online this sort of move usually won't work, but your hand does look somewhat like a b/d flush draw (unless you'd normally c/r the turn and he knows that).

Thoughts?

lf

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On that river, almost no hands value bet and then fold to a c/r. And by almost no hands, i mean he might have played 99 this way 1 in 250 times, and then he might call the river raise only half the time, so i don't see c/r'sing as option.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hmmm...

I'm shocked that I of all people am the first to mention this, since i'm normally a nit. 16VPIP is pretty snug. Do you have any info on his fold river %, or fold to c/r %? I'm wondering if the pause was deciding to make a value bet (that he considers thin) with an overpair or a strong J. If so, is he tight enough to fold to a c/r? I know online this sort of move usually won't work, but your hand does look somewhat like a b/d flush draw (unless you'd normally c/r the turn and he knows that).

Thoughts?

lf

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On that river, almost no hands value bet and then fold to a c/r. And by almost no hands, i mean he might have played 99 this way 1 in 250 times, and then he might call the river raise only half the time, so i don't see c/r'sing as option.

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It was an off the wall sort of thought that is really player dependant. I've never played in that game, and I don't pretend to know the players, but some of the 15-16 VPIP guys would bet KK on that river, get c/r, look at the third diamond and click on the fold button hard with disgust. Obviously its a long shot, and probably a dumb move, but it might have merit against the right kind of player...maybe a VPIP 9 or something would be a better candidate then a 16
lf

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was an off the wall sort of thought that is really player dependant. I've never played in that game, and I don't pretend to know the players, but some of the 15-16 VPIP guys would bet KK on that river, get c/r, look at the third diamond and click on the fold button hard with disgust. Obviously its a long shot, and probably a dumb move, but it might have merit against the right kind of player...maybe a VPIP 9 or something would be a better candidate then a 16
lf

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Wouldn't the WSD and W$SD numbers be more accurate when deciding whether or not we should try a move like that?

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

if the river is a check-fold, what does that make the turn?

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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if the river is a check-fold, what does that make the turn?

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Dont players continuation bet AK/AQ on the turn a lot then check behind the river when they don't improve?

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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if the river is a check-fold, what does that make the turn?

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Dont players continuation bet AK/AQ on the turn a lot then check behind the river when they don't improve?

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Bingo.
-James

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

fold preflop.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

not sure what he's betting here that you beat. but at the same time, if you are calling the turn, i can't see why you'd fold the river.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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Is there any merit to betting this river?

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IMO, no.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

Probably. I mentioned in my first post looking at his fold to river bet % and fold to c/r%. I'm just making a vague assumption that most players that are capable of only playing 15% or their hands might also be capable of making that kind of fold.

lf

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

Given his stats, I think you need to fold the turn.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

Isn't this hand sort of the textbook reason that people suggest folding this hand in early position?

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

Yeah i usually fold this hand. It got 8 handed and I felt like playing it. Eh. It's gotta be close. You're EP raises get more respect so a lot of AQ's and stuff are going to hit the muck. At least from the good players.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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Isn't this hand sort of the textbook reason that people suggest folding this hand in early position?

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I think it is a perfect raise UTG in a somewhat tight game!

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

But if you were the other guy, wouldn't you value bet any pair on teh river given that BK played his hand like he could have AK or AQ (and also played it like he has no Jack and probably no Ten)?

When this guy bets the river, I wouldn't call thinking he might have AK (b/c I don't think he would bet that hand). Well, he might but I am basically calling because he might have AQ or a pair lower than Tens often enough to make calling worthwhile.

One can't put too much stock in his stats because BK apparently does not have many hands on him. Those stats might be based on 2 or 3 orbits only...who knows...BK didn't specify.

Incidentally, it's funny how poker thinking has evolved. It used to be that a guy giving advice to "checkcall, checkcall, checkfold" would be laughed out of town. Now, we have at least two of the forum's more accomplished players (you and James) giving that advice.

And the advice is correct in many spots (but IMO, not this one).

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

dont know what those numbers mean, but i say CALLLLLLLLLL
or lead river,

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

i like your play so far... id fold river.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

Villan probably spiked a 5 to make a set on the river [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. FWIW I think you should call the pot's laying you enough.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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But if you were the other guy, wouldn't you value bet any pair on teh river given that BK played his hand like he could have AK or AQ (and also played it like he has no Jack and probably no Ten)?

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Your are dead on. Check-folding the river is bad for this reason. It's still probably close. Nonetheless, the point can still be made that as the games get tougher, players need to stop playing cookie cutter poker (i.e. if you call the turn, you HAVE to call the river - pay off one bet on the river mentality). If you don't have the check-call, check-call, check-fold line in your reportoire (with made hands) you are leaving money on the table.

The preflop raise is stupid.

Thank you for correcting me SKP.

Re: 50/100 party hand I was sweated on
 

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not sure what he's betting here that you beat. but at the same time, if you are calling the turn, i can't see why you'd fold the river.

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Board: Jd Th 8c 3d
equity (%)
.49 { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
.51 { KcTc }

You're receiving 5:1 on the turn, so you have quite a lot of wiggle room re: how often he has to bet AK-AQ to make a call profitable.

On the river, we're not winning 1/8 times given the action. Bet-folding is a possibile option, but I'm not sure it's better than check-folding.

It's okay to fold on the river sometimes when you called on the turn with a made hand.