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- Mid- and High-Stakes Hold'em (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16)

- - A9s 3bet LP (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=341480)

30/60: 10 handed. My image is probably good except I had raised the previous two hands so some opponents will start to doubt my raising standards a little bit.

Loose aggressive Hijack raises, I 3bet from the CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB calls, Hijack calls.
SB seems solid, no numbers on him but he's been straight forward in 2 orbits.

Flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I bet SB cr's and Hijack folds. I 3 bet and SB calls.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
check check

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
check, I bet.

Thoughts on any street?

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why 3 bet the flop?

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For a free turn.

I guess your river bet is looking for a call from a worse hand here because what better one would he fold? The only ones he may call with is 77-88-79-89.

I can see laying those down because of your 3 bet pf, free card raise and the K coming off. I'd call the J because of your turn check.

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why 3 bet the flop?

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For a free turn.

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You think you're behind here?

I think his most likely hand is something like 77/88.

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why 3 bet the flop?

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For a free turn.

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You think you're behind here?

I think his most likely hand is something like 77/88.

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I might or might not take the free card if it was benign looking. I was leaning towards checking the turn when I 3bet the flop. If it was a brick turn it would depend mostly on exactly what I thought my current image was because I guessed AJ/KJ/QJ and maybe straight draw at the time... moreso than a 77/88. But 77/88 are definite possibilites. I lean toward checking the turn when I don't know the opponent well.

On a side note: How the hell do I place multiple quotes inside a quote without it looking like it does above with the dashed lines instead of the pretty quote boxes? Currently I just highlight all the quotes, Ctrl+C, then in the post window I hit the Quote link which inserts the quote HTML like tags, then I paste the copied quotes inside the Quote tags.

I would three bet the flop AND bet the turn. You may have the best hand and if you get raised, so be it...you have outs.

Jeff

i am interested in knowing what you would do if the flop comes K, Q, J or T high rainbow (or two-tone not ur suit) against the same 2 opponents.

thanks,

- Kenny

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I would three bet the flop AND bet the turn. You may have the best hand and if you get raised, so be it...you have outs.

Jeff

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Betting isn't bad I just thought checking was preferable. If I bet and am called I think I'm behind more than 50% of the time. (And I don't mind 66 or 77 coming along because they may pay off a blank river putting my on AK. Whether or not I want 88 coming along is obviously a little trickier since it turned a gutshot.)

And it's definitely a check-raising type turn card.

What hand range do you put SB on?

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i am interested in knowing what you would do if the flop comes K, Q, J or T high rainbow (or two-tone not ur suit) against the same 2 opponents.

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I feel like you're setting a trap for me kenny. But that's ok, if my play is inconsistent I'm here to learn.

I would bet most of the time and fold to a check-raise. A minority of the time I would just give up and check the flop not wanting to put anymore money in the hand. I don't like SB's pre-flop call.

I still disagree with the flop 3 bet. I will post more thoughts tomorrow.

I think betting this river is -EV. A LAG isn't folding better hands, although I could see him calling with a worse 9, but I don't think that's that frequent.

Thinking about the hand afterwards I was really disappointed in my river bet. Steve and SA125 also noted it as -EV.

Online I've noticed that when I put my opponent on a better hand and the board comes such that he can't think that his hand is still good.....they end up often calling anyway.

On the river I thought my opponent's most likely hand was AJ and he would now fold to a bet, so I bet. Opponent called and showed AJ and mhing.

Also disappointing is that I conveniently forgot opponent can have 6 or 7 more hands that also beat me that he would not lay down. Plus the slight chance opponent cr's and I don't get to see his hand.

Flop and turn are debatable I think.

Pre-Flop: I hate the isolation here, I think this is -ev most of the time. Unless I have a real read on my opponent I think I'm mucking this most of the time. If I really want to get fancy, I'll reraise with a ATs instead.

Flop: I like the 3bet, your more than 50% to win the pot and you have position.

Turn: I'm betting here all the time. If you get check-raised I think it's clear enough that you're behind. SB check-raised on the flop indicating a made hand. Playing weak passive here never works, giving a freecard is horrible too.

River: I'm checking here most of the time. Since I'm not sure that my hand is good, I rather induce a bluff. The worst thing about hold'em is getting bluffed out when you have a chance to win.

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i am interested in knowing what you would do if the flop comes K, Q, J or T high rainbow (or two-tone not ur suit) against the same 2 opponents.

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I feel like you're setting a trap for me kenny. But that's ok, if my play is inconsistent I'm here to learn.

I would bet most of the time and fold to a check-raise. A minority of the time I would just give up and check the flop not wanting to put anymore money in the hand. I don't like SB's pre-flop call.

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Thanks. And no Rob, I wasn't setting a trap for you. I found myself in this situation quite a lot. Also I believe many of us "tight aggressive" yet not "SUPER tight" players find ourself missing the flop against a preflop raiser quite a bunch of times [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

my recent problem is that I get check-raised either on the flop or turn by the pre-flop caller or raiser VERY frequently. and the MAJORITY of the times, they would show me some hand on river, if i do decide to go to showdown with a hand like AK-AJ. this has lasted for months now (OK, that was a complain), but i feel on top of the possibility of me running bad, there might be something i can do about it. and if that's true, i'd like to find out.

most of us talk about when we hit someting after the flop as the re-raiser, however, i am far more interested in hearing some discussion on all the times we miss and get played at, which happens more and more online, since people are getting more tricky.

- Kenny

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i am interested in knowing what you would do if the flop comes K, Q, J or T high rainbow (or two-tone not ur suit) against the same 2 opponents.

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I feel like you're setting a trap for me kenny. But that's ok, if my play is inconsistent I'm here to learn.

I would bet most of the time and fold to a check-raise. A minority of the time I would just give up and check the flop not wanting to put anymore money in the hand. I don't like SB's pre-flop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. And no Rob, I wasn't setting a trap for you. I found myself in this situation quite a lot. Also I believe many of us "tight aggressive" yet not "SUPER tight" players find ourself missing the flop against a preflop raiser quite a bunch of times [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

my recent problem is that I get check-raised either on the flop or turn by the pre-flop caller or raiser VERY frequently. and the MAJORITY of the times, they would show me some hand on river, if i do decide to go to showdown with a hand like AK-AJ. this has lasted for months now (OK, that was a complain), but i feel on top of the possibility of me running bad, there might be something i can do about it. and if that's true, i'd like to find out.

most of us talk about when we hit someting after the flop as the re-raiser, however, i am far more interested in hearing some discussion on all the times we miss and get played at, which happens more and more online, since people are getting more tricky.

- Kenny

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Interestingly I'm currently going through the exact same thing you mentioned. As a result, the last week and a half I've adjusted my play and I've dropped from 4 tables to 2 to analyze the situation. (That and I've yet to lose in 20 sessions this year while 2-tabling - so I want to see how far this anomaly will go)

The adjustment I've made is to tighten up post flop. I'm giving up about twice as often as I used to - especially against aggressive players. That means I'll either check behind on the flop and fold the turn or bet the flop and fold right there to a CR or fold on the turn. Interestingly, you would think that it would encourage people to take shots at me but it hasn't. Maybe that will change but I play against so many different players on the 30-60 hard to say how often they'll be able to take advantage.

I combat the weak image by almost always 3 betting a cr if I'm going to see the river. Of course I have to follow up with a turn bet a certain portion of the time without the goods or else my opponent has an easy decision on the turn.

Examples

LA limps utg, I raise AJh in lp. BB calls.
Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
check to me I'll often check hoping I spike a J or A and if not I'm check-folding the turn. If instead I held JJ and was cr by the BB and utg folded I would 3 bet and bet most turns.

Different scenario: the fake slowplay - I have AJh on the button and open raise. BB calls.
Flop: K 10 3 rainbow. check check.
The check has to puzzle the BB because I'm an aggressive player usually and it looks like I've flopped a big hand and am trying to trap. And I've also foiled a cr bluff. Now opponent will very often fold the turn or just call a K or 10 where it would have cost me a lot more.