Implied odds?
 

I thought this was easy when I played it, but now I'm not sure. No reads, first hand at this table - GT+ not opened yet.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero (poster) checks, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (15 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, Hero ???

I know I don't have pot odds to call this, but in retrospect I'm wondering if I had implied odds? If the king falls, I should clean up on the river. How do I think this one out?

Re: Implied odds?
 

I don't like the pre-flop post, the pre-flop call and I don't think you have the implied odds to call the turn because you could just as well be splitting the pot with another T. You're taking the implied odds thing way too far. It usually is effective when it's a close decision between calling and folding, this case is an obvious fold in my opinion.

Re: Implied odds?
 

Well, I had no choice on the PF post (just sat down, remember?), and I'd call 1 small bet with most anything when 6(!) people already called 2. Just reread the SSHE bit about implied odds before this session, trying to find out how to put it in practice. Is there a way to get a hard number on it, or just go by feel ("easy fold", "close enuf to call" etc.) Someone enlighten me. I guess I'm figuring these guys are betting/raising less than top pair or flush draws, and I could extract at least 2, maybe 4+ bets on the river if I make it, but don't know how to quantify this.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I had no choice on the PF post (just sat down, remember?)

[/ QUOTE ]

it's called waiting.

Re: Implied odds?
 

You add the extra bets you think you might extract when you hit your draw to the pot size.
Consider you might get 3-bet on the turn though so you'de be calling even more bets.

Re: Implied odds?
 

OK, I could have waited, but I've got limited playing time tonight and the "post or wait" argument is a whole other question that's been discussed to death here.

Here's two other pieces of info that may help y'all help me:
1) Just made the jump from succesful .25/.5 player to getting killed at .5/1 (like many others it would seem) and am desparately trying to find the leaks
2) (in white to not spoil results) <font color="white"> Of course a king came on river, which was raised and re-raised by 33 and Qx <font color="black">

Anyone want to help me with the original question?

Re: Implied odds?
 

I did...

Re: Implied odds?
 

Turn: (7.50 BB) 3 (7 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 raises, Hero ???


7.50BB Pot + BB bet + UTG's + 2x UTG+2
11.50 and 2 back to us to call.

Now i'm not sure if UTG+2 thought about his raise, he could just hold A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and be raising for equity(Tiny tiny edge) OR HE IS PROTECTING his hand from the gutshots or he just hit a card.

So if UTG+2 has played well throughout the game, these kind of actions are what i personally put into notes about players("No's Equity" "No's Protection" - But see when you get to showdown).


Anyhow concerning if you can call or fold...
We're getting 11.50:2 to call, 5.75:1

We need 10.5:1 to call so must pick up atleast 5BB's to make it .25BB profitable.

For me, This is a fold simply because as said you may split with another Ten and will you even get 5BBs?

Re: Implied odds?
 

Yes, you did (while I was typing slowly). Thank you.

Re: Implied odds?
 

Tour implied odds is largely reduced by the fact that a K puts a 4 straight on the board, 2-pair won't raise you. Besides you might split the pot if you hit. You're not close to having the implied odds to call the turn. And this hand should have been folded preflop.

Re: Implied odds?
 

aha! Read this quick, seems to be the info I was looking for, thanks. Can't digest while playing, but I'll come back and study the numbers when I'm done. Appreciate it.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) Just made the jump from succesful .25/.5 player to getting killed at .5/1 (like many others it would seem) and am desparately trying to find the leaks

[/ QUOTE ]
If you had called this turn it would have been a huge mistake. I guess you need to start learning how to calculate odds. And the preflop call isn't anything to be proud about either.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow concerning if you can call or fold...
We're getting 11.50:2 to call, 5.75:1

We need 10.5:1 to call so must pick up atleast 5BB's to make it .25BB profitable.

For me, This is a fold simply because as said you may split with another Ten and will you even get 5BBs?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true, the odds you're getting are 11.5:2 NOT 5.75:1. There's an important differance. The odds against hitting the gut-shot is 21:2, thus you'll have to make 9.5BB on the river ( 21 - 11.5 = 9.5 ). Calling here would be really really terrible.

Re: Implied odds?
 

Not sure on the lost equity, but I also would post in MP3 unless I was multi-tabling.

There is no way you can call preflop after a raise though.

Flop is correct, turn is a 100% fold... its not even remotely close.

Ok I will try to explain implied odds here to the best of my ability.

The BB is betting from early position, this could mean an attempted value flop checkraise gone wrong, which could easily mean a 3bet is coming behind you. I would say getting to the river here is going to cost you on average ~2.5BB.

So your current odds are 2.5BB to win a pot of 15BB. Judging by the mass amount of people playing, I would say your K outs are dirty, and further reduced by the Kh that may give another player a backdoor flush, giving you on average ~3 outs for the K. Realistically no other cards in the deck are giving you this pot.

So basically using normal pot odds your getting about a 6% chance of winning the pot, which means you need to be getting about 15.5 to 1 on your moneys. Unfortunately, currently you are only getting 2.5/15 or 5 to 1.

However, judging by the aggression on the turn, you get extra IMPLIED odds from the bets that you can win on the river. Here, the chances of another T staying in the pot and chopping it are roughly cancelled out by the chances of an emotional or overzealous set/2P 3 betting you. So we will say one bet and one raise give you another 2 bets from at least one, maybe two runners, for on average ~3 in total.

Suddenly your 5 to 1 can be bumped up to 8 to 1 with the extra implied river odds. (Keeping in mind that your implied odds would be much larger if your outs were more hidden, a passive player suddenly firing with 4 high cards to a straight on the board is incredibly transparent).

So here... even with the implied odds, you are still absolutely nowhere near the odds that you need to make this call. Not even close.

As an extra note, try not to be results oriented here. Remember the 92% of the time that K wouldnt have come that this hand would not have been posted.

Hope I helped, I dont think what ive said is 100% accurate, so corrections would be welcome, but the general idea is there.

Re: Implied odds?
 

Have i gone wrong in the very basics of poker then [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

11.50:2 is the same as 5.75:1 No?

So whenever theres a raise, we must keep using the X:2 ratio, we can't simplify it down to X:1 ? Therefore we then must double the odds of hitting out next card i.e. FLush Draw 4.1:1, Now becomes 8.2:2 ?

Why have you mentioned GS odds at 21:2 and not 10.5:1?

If this is the case, maybe i've made huge -EV calls in the past and if so, I need further feedback on this.


Please explain further. Apoligises to the Original Poster(OP) if i'm wrong.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have i gone wrong in the very basics of poker then [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

11.50:2 is the same as 5.75:1 No?

So whenever theres a raise, we must keep using the X:2 ratio, we can't simplify it down to X:1 ? Therefore we then must double the odds of hitting out next card i.e. FLush Draw 4.1:1, Now becomes 8.2:2 ?

Why have you mentioned GS odds at 21:2 and not 10.5:1?

If this is the case, maybe i've made huge -EV calls in the past and if so, I need further feedback on this.


Please explain further. Apoligises to the Original Poster(OP) if i'm wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry for not being more informative in my first post. It's only when we're calculating implied odds we need to take into consideration how many bets we're calling (because that's what we're doing).

If you think about it it's pretty logic, the more bets you put into the pot when calling, the more bets you'll have to make when hitting. You could also calculate the way you did and multiply the "answer" with the number of bets you need to put into the pot. This is instead of changing 10.5:1 to 21:2.

So I guess you could say the only time when 10:2 isn't the same as 5:1 is when you calculate implied odds. Hope I made myself clear, if not just ask.

Re: Implied odds?
 

I'd often get confused when writing out implied odds and i think you may have discovered my error.

It was a case of "Im sure ive gone wrong, but where?". You're post does make sense and ill write out a few examples later so if you could clarify these that would be appreciated.

Implied odds i thought was easy to learn, it seems i've made a fundermental error.

Hopefully my error and post here has helped the OP(Original Poster) to further understand them.

Will bump this later,
Thanks.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Will bump this later

[/ QUOTE ]
I might not be online then, but PM me a link if you post some examples and I will take a look.

Re: Implied odds?
 

*grunch* I dont call the preflop raise.

I fold on the turn. I only see 3 outs that guarantee the nuts (Kh makes a possible flush) and with all these people in, you're bound to be splitting the pot with someone even if you get one of the other kings. I can't call here.

Re: Implied odds?
 

Haven't had a chance to read all this yet, as I'm still playing (and holding my own, yea!) at the table where this all started. Part of getting my .5/1 game together involves not trying to do other stuff while playing and PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME. Looks like good info from all, and I'll read it completly when I get done playing.

[ QUOTE ]
As an extra note, try not to be results oriented here. Remember the 92% of the time that K wouldnt have come that this hand would not have been posted.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is always good advice, esp. since I find myself falling back into bad habits when I moved up. This forums biggest benefit for me is it gives me an alternative to being results oriented - I can ask about something I don't understand and find a better way to re-evaluate a hand I wasn't sure about. Thanks all.

Masochist in me is a little bummed I didn't get flamed on more, though. ;-)

Re: Implied odds?
 

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Ignore preflop, and the crazy flop call.

Turn: (8BB)(3players) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG Bets, MP2 Raises, Hero....

4Outs(Yes all in the deck/clean)


11:2 to us, so we now say 22:2 and we need 11bets on the river when we hit meaning even if utg calls (12BB, then caps river with MP2 12BB+4BB+4BB = 20BB(Excluding ours)

Gut Shot Odds to hit:22 to 2 to call(We double, as its been raised)
Current Pot Odds: 11:2 to us
Potential Bets Won:UTG Call + (UTG River Cap + Mp2 River Cap) = 9BB
Final Pot 11+ 9BB = 20BB

22 to 2 to call, 20BB implied = NOT ENOUGH = FOLD.


We still do not make enough.



Now with my thinking it was:
11:2 &gt; 5.5:1 we need 5BB by river.

Gut Shot Odds to hit:10.5 to 1 to call
Current Pot Odds: 5.50:1 (11:2 to us)
Potential Bets Won:UTG Call + (UTG River Cap + Mp2 River Cap) = 9BB
Final Pot 11+ 9BB = 20BB

20BB implied, 10.5:1 needed we now make 9.5BB profit.(WRONG)

---------------------------------------------------

As you can see, My example is wrong but looks so profitable and your example is correct and is not profitable.

I conclude im a complete newbie who doesn't even know implied odds fully.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
11:2 to us, so we now say 22:2 and we need 11bets on the river when we hit meaning even if utg calls (12BB, then caps river with MP2 12BB+4BB+4BB = 20BB(Excluding ours)

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess you've got the 22:2 number from taking 10.5:1 and multiplying it with 2, and than adding 1 because you want to make a profit, right? In that case your thinking is correct, but don't need to add anything really.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
11:2 to us, so we now say 22:2 and we need 11bets on the river when we hit meaning even if utg calls (12BB, then caps river with MP2 12BB+4BB+4BB = 20BB(Excluding ours)

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess you've got the 22:2 number from taking 10.5:1 and multiplying it with 2, and than adding 1 because you want to make a profit, right? In that case your thinking is correct, but don't need to add anything really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was actually a typo LOL

Thanks for your help Nick, I'm going to review some hands where i may have miscalculated implied odds(and got lucky)

Although i feel stupid, I'm happy to have learnt i was wrong on implied odds.

I'm trying to learn advanced concepts when i dont have the basics implace [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img](i thought i did).

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was easy when I played it, but now I'm not sure. No reads, first hand at this table - GT+ not opened yet.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero (poster) checks, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (15 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, Hero ???

I know I don't have pot odds to call this, but in retrospect I'm wondering if I had implied odds? If the king falls, I should clean up on the river. How do I think this one out?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, I'm pretty sure you don't (you're just drawing to the Jack, right?).

---

On the turn, the pot is 7.5:1, when the guy bets, it's 8.5:1... you would have correct implied odds most of the time if the other guy just called, but when he bets, it's not 10.5:2 (5.25:1).

Now, if the guy in UTG calls (which he's not guaranteed or anything), then it's 11.5:2... still a long ways from your required pot odds.

There's also a chance that you will chop the pot if you hit.

Keep in mind that the pot is going to be raked, too, right? So you have to take the rake out of the pot odds at this point.

To figure out if you're going to have correct implied odds, you figure out how much action you're going to get on the river and add that figure to the current pot odds.

You don't know if this is going to be three-bet and/or capped behind you when you call the turn, either, which further dilutes your odds here...

Also, check out the positions of the BB and UTG+2...

Supposing a bunch of people get to the river, the guy that's going to likely bet the river is sitting on your direct right, meaning that you'll have to call the river, going for overcalls... this puts you in position to make a mistake when you would have gotten excessive action from utg+2 and when no one else calls...

So, you should fold this. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

--Dave.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I had no choice on the PF post (just sat down, remember?)

[/ QUOTE ]

it's called waiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man. I just made a post on this subject. Reply to it with your best numbers before you just follow the herd.
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

And by the way, this isn't just in reference to you specifically, it's a huge pet peeve of mine that practically everyone on here says, "Post in the CO and not in MP3," and I have yet to determine why this is the case.

I think I made a post on it about a year ago or half a year ago and there was no conclusion.

--Dave.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I could have waited, but I've got limited playing time tonight and the "post or wait" argument is a whole other question that's been discussed to death here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally when you post in mp3 or earlier, you should mention that you're purposely making a -ev decision for the sake of play-time, just for self-defense. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

However, I'm kinda curious as to where this has been discussed in depth... did you mean in this thread?

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]

On the turn, the pot is 7.5:1, when the guy bets, it's 8.5:1... you would have correct implied odds most of the time if the other guy just called, but when he bets, it's not 10.5:2 (5.25:1).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey david, with your "10.5:2 and (5.25:1)" are you making the same mistake i made above? (Check out my post then nicks correction etc).

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is not true, the odds you're getting are 11.5:2 NOT 5.75:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rest of your points are great, but I'd like to point out that these ratios are equivalent. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The way you'd look at it is that you have to recover about 5 units, which in this decision is about 10bb.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

On the turn, the pot is 7.5:1, when the guy bets, it's 8.5:1... you would have correct implied odds most of the time if the other guy just called, but when he bets, it's not 10.5:2 (5.25:1).

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your help.

I'm pretty sure I've addressed these issues, though.

Re: Implied odds?
 

re: results in white: nice table!

Re: Implied odds?
 

Cool beans!
Good to see two guys agreeing now i know im wrong and have corrected a leak(Aslong as i remember).

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

On the turn, the pot is 7.5:1, when the guy bets, it's 8.5:1... you would have correct implied odds most of the time if the other guy just called, but when he bets, it's not 10.5:2 (5.25:1).

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your help.

I'm pretty sure I've addressed these issues, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... well, re-reading my post (while reading the rest of the thread, first reply was a grunch), it's not really clear if I knew at the time that 10bb were required on the river: it wasn't really discussed.

FWIW, I don't know if you would have gotten 5 on the river (obviously, yes, in this hand you would have, but I"m not sure about in a general case).

Re: Implied odds?
 

One reason I like DIPO (King Yao's method, see Books/Publications forum) is that implied odds are always factored in and quantified. Others may argue that it's just too much calculation to do at the table, but if you're fast with multiplication, I think it can definitely be done. I'll demonstrate DIPO using your example, and assuming like you did, that UTG will never re-raise.

Good Number:
Expected Pot Size * # outs
= 14 BB * 4 outs
= 56

Bad Number:
# of non-outs * Bet size
= (46 - 4) * 2 BB
= 84

Bad number &gt; Good number so we don't have pot odds to continue. I got to the expected pot size of 14 BB by assuming that UTG calls the turn raise, and that I can collect 1 BB from each of them when I hit on the river (pretty conservative estimate). If I assume the river gets capped like you, I add 6 more BB to the expected pot size and get a good number of:

20 BB * 4 outs = 80

which is still less than the bad number of 84, so this is a fold. No amount of implied odds will make this call profitable.

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The rest of your points are great, but I'd like to point out that these ratios are equivalent.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I read I thread where Sklansky called some author incompetent because he wrote that those were the same. Sure, the ratios between the numbers are the same but the odds your recieving are differrent, just as I stated. EDIT: ok, maybe I stated myself a little bit unclear [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

On the turn, the pot is 7.5:1, when the guy bets, it's 8.5:1... you would have correct implied odds most of the time if the other guy just called, but when he bets, it's not 10.5:2 (5.25:1).

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your help.

I'm pretty sure I've addressed these issues, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... well, re-reading my post (while reading the rest of the thread, first reply was a grunch), it's not really clear if I knew at the time that 10bb were required on the river: it wasn't really discussed.

FWIW, I don't know if you would have gotten 5 on the river (obviously, yes, in this hand you would have, but I"m not sure about in a general case).

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm positive I would fold even if I only had to make 5 more BB's...

Re: Implied odds?
 

DavidC Your replies have confused me, Your quoting what you shouldnt(Because thats your latest reply)? You've clicked "REPLY" on your own username and not addressed anyone.

I'm lost mate.

SlantNGo
This is a interesting method, from Weighing the odds book i assume?

I probably could pull this off during game, However i'm not sure whats easier...

I suppose if its raised and i need implied this may be a shortcut. As i plan to buy that book for Xmas i shall wait untill then(And by then increase poker knowledge) so i'm ready to learn that method(And it'll be easier to understand from the book i assume?)

I look forward to getting this book.

Re: Implied odds?
 

It is indeed from Weighing the Odds. One thing that this book will do for you is to understand the question "Why?". Yao attempts to answer qualitatively, then shows an EV calculation to illustrate the point. Following that is a note on how changing a certain variable, i.e. opponent type affects the assumptions made in the EV calculation and how you should adjust if that's the case.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a interesting method, from Weighing the odds book i assume?

I probably could pull this off during game, However i'm not sure whats easier...

I suppose if its raised and i need implied this may be a shortcut. As i plan to buy that book for Xmas i shall wait untill then(And by then increase poker knowledge) so i'm ready to learn that method(And it'll be easier to understand from the book i assume?)

I look forward to getting this book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Implied odds?
 

If you're asking why people post in the cutoff and not MP3, its because in the CO you get 8 hands for 1BB - 0.125 bb perhand. In the blinds, its 10 hands for 1.5 bb - 0.15 bb/hand, with worse position. Posting in MP3, you get 4 hands for 1 BB, obviously worse than the blinds, so you should just wait. If you didn't mean this, I'm an idiot (and semi drunk so don't blame me...)

Re: Implied odds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is indeed from Weighing the Odds. One thing that this book will do for you is to understand the question "Why?". Yao attempts to answer qualitatively, then shows an EV calculation to illustrate the point. Following that is a note on how changing a certain variable, i.e. opponent type affects the assumptions made in the EV calculation and how you should adjust if that's the case.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a interesting method, from Weighing the odds book i assume?

I probably could pull this off during game, However i'm not sure whats easier...

I suppose if its raised and i need implied this may be a shortcut. As i plan to buy that book for Xmas i shall wait untill then(And by then increase poker knowledge) so i'm ready to learn that method(And it'll be easier to understand from the book i assume?)

I look forward to getting this book.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Souinds like my type of book! i hate accepting "X" and not knowing why X is caused/Made/Done.

Thanks for your help all, Sorry to OP(Original poster) if it got hijacked, I ACTUALLY THINK YOU LEARNT MORE FROM ME COCKING UP.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Good luck in future hands.

Re: Implied odds?
 

Not to bump this, but I just logged on after a 16-hr day at work and found a bunch of new posts. Had to respond to a couple of them. Saving this thread, it'll take most of my cross-country flight later this morning to sort it all out.

Concerning the secondary debate of this thread:
[ QUOTE ]
in the CO you get 8 hands for 1BB - 0.125 bb perhand. In the blinds, its 10 hands for 1.5 bb - 0.15 bb/hand,

[/ QUOTE ]
This sums it up for me, but take it further. I played 195 hands at this table, posted 25 big and 23 small blinds, plus my bring in. Thats 37.5 big blinds or 18.75 big bets for 195 hands = .096BB/hand. Without the bring in its .091BB/hand for a -EV of .005BB/hand. Oh well. Steal the blinds occasionaly and call it even.

DavidC - don't remember where I saw all this hashed out, may have dragged the thread you mention out of the archives at some point. And BTW,
[ QUOTE ]
re: results in white: nice table!

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, yes it was!