Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

Feel kindof stupid asking this, but what's the best way to build a roll to properly play the 30/60 you guys keep taking about?

I play lower stakes, am comfortable playing 10/20...

The investment for just 200 Big Bets is $12,000! This, to me, is just too much money to go and deposit into a site...
The obvious answer is then to deposit less and build it up - yea I know...but how much and where's the best place/how's the best way to go about building the roll...
Assuming I could beat that limit for a profit/would enjoy playing that high regularly...

Isn't 30/60 full of pros?

Any advice/insights into how you may have built your roll appreciated.
(I tend to get greedy and cash-out my winnings and spend them, so I find it very tough to be able to
accomplish this task of amsassing a $12-18K roll).

Joe M.

Ps. If you think this post is funny or you think I'm a donk or idiot or whatever - fell free to insult. I am here for your entertainment.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

people 'build' rolls for big games by beating small games.

sorry,but there are no shortcuts if you want to build a safe roll for 30/60.

if you aren't worried about going bust, then there are plenty of shortcuts [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

How many tables are you going to play? If it's only one or two you don't need to deposit anywhere near 200 BB all at once. I'm assuming of course that you have the money and just don't want to deposit that much. That's what your post implies.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

Build your role at 5-10 for a while. Those games are awesome, and then you can build a cushioned role so you can take shots every now and then.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

I think most people build their rolls by grinding it out at the lower limits, it's best this way. You should start at the 5/10 level and go from there. The 30/60 tables are a much, much different game.

When I was playing 5/10 seriously from about a year and a half ago the games were ridiculously easy. I stayed there for a little bit and found myself winning a few very large MTT's. My goal at that time was to play the 15/30 but once I won the tournaments it was smooth sailing. I took a shot at the 15/30 and never looked back.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

If you're asking for a get rich quick scheme, well, there is none. If you're asking about which stakes are the most profitable, I think that depends a lot on your own game. Some people will argue that 5/10, 10/20 SH is profitable, but if you've been playing full-ring games for 3 years, it'd be more profitable for you to just stick with those, rather than learn a whole new game.

By the way, on this site, 300 BB is considered the standard bankroll for smaller stakes, not 200 BB. I believe the reason for this is the increased aggression online. (It's much easier to click the "raise" button with 7-high than it is to throw in chips when you're at a real table.) From other discussions though, it seems like 300 BB is not considered enough for 15/30 and up. A lot of people consider 500 BB a good bankroll for the 15, 20, and 30 games.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

craps...that's how TJ did it.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

Don't feel stupid, you were smart enough to post, and sound willing to be flamed.

I have a ~$20K roll right now I built playing lower limits and I still dont like taking $1K-$2K swings at 5/10. I have played as high as 10/20. I am currently 4 tabling 2/4 at the beginning of each month and then working up to 5/10 as the month progresses. Oh btw I suck at poker. I have been playing online and posting here since 1999. Poker is my only source of income.

If you have other ways of replenishing your bankroll then you can definitely takes shots at 10/20-30/60 with less than 300BB.

Oh and don't go putting your whole roll into a site. Put in a couple buy-ins. Put some in a Neteller account. Put the rest in your Interest bearing checking or somewhere not so easily transferred if you are one to throw good money after bad.

Good Luck.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

ive made a lot of money playing 30/60 on the party poker network over the summer, my problem is that whenever I want to play on another site (usually at a higher limit) the deposit limits prevent me from transferring over enough money (especially at stars). I guess I could transfer a couple of thousand each day, but it is kind of a pain not to be able to transfer 10k at a time.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
ive made a lot of money playing 30/60 on the party poker network over the summer, my problem is that whenever I want to play on another site (usually at a higher limit) the deposit limits prevent me from transferring over enough money (especially at stars). I guess I could transfer a couple of thousand each day, but it is kind of a pain not to be able to transfer 10k at a time.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you have neteller, email pokerstars and you should be able to increase your daily neteller withdraw limit to 10K.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

"after all these years of failure with get rich quick schemes, i just KNOW im going to get rich with this scheme. and QUICK!!"

Barron

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

Have very rich parents suddenly killed.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

Thanks guys for your help/advice!
I am specifically trying to build up the roll I'm talking about on PartyPoker.
I tried their 5/10 tables a couple of times and got frustrated - I had
trouble beating them due to the ridiculous aggression (couldn't tell the pure bluffs from the monsters) and the fact
that the 5 and 10$ bets mine as well be 5 Cent and 10 Cent bets to some of the players that reside there...
(no way to get anyone to fold when you want them to/lack of "fold equity" in hands I believe the term is...).
I have been successful beating 5/10$ on other sites, but I've failed on Party...

I tried their 10/20 a little and that seemed a little better...

I am also currently trying to get better at Stud b/c it seems there's some money to be made there...(extra round of betting...)

For a site like Pacific Poker, if you deposit $500. for 5/10 play that's MORE than enought to amass a huge roll...you take that $500 to 800-1000 and then take a shot at 10/20 - If you do OK then you're pushing 1500-2K and can somewhat safely play 15/30 too...

On Party, though, am I doing something wrong? Or do you need to put in $500 times 3 (3 seperate deposits) just to have a
shot there?
I read somwhere (I think maybe here) that Party 5/10 stinks/is horrible and is not really beatable? any opinions? (I know
5/10 is consider to be small stakes, but it's relevant in our discussion as
a "stepping stone" to the Mid-level games...).

1 last question: anyone here beating 100/200 online?

Joe M.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

Okay, this last post is very alarming. There are key poker concepts that you're clearly not even aware of. These sites are not slot machines that pay out in various ways; every table has nine different kinds of player on it, plus you. And I guarantee that anywhere above $2/$4 you're going to be the sucker who thinks there's some trick to getting his results to go up, besides simply paying more attention and playing better.

As if having the GPS to give you precise yardages, and other local knowledge, is going to cure you of that horrible duck-hook off the tee.

Play eighty thousand hands below 5/10 before tackling it; your success at other sites is pure chance and will end, leading to one certain outcome, unless you start learning the game of poker for itself.

JimmyV

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

You are not beating the game. Wake up or donate.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are not beating the game. Wake up or donate.

[/ QUOTE ]

By this do you mean you think I'm not going to be able to beat the Party 30/60 I'm asking about playing?

Or do you mean I'm not beating the current games I'm playing and just lying about it?

Pls. let me know and also let me know why or how you came to this/these conclusions,

Thx., Joe M.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, this last post is very alarming. There are key poker concepts that you're clearly not even aware of. These sites are not slot machines that pay out in various ways; every table has nine different kinds of player on it, plus you. And I guarantee that anywhere above $2/$4 you're going to be the sucker who thinks there's some trick to getting his results to go up, besides simply paying more attention and playing better.

As if having the GPS to give you precise yardages, and other local knowledge, is going to cure you of that horrible duck-hook off the tee.

Play eighty thousand hands below 5/10 before tackling it; your success at other sites is pure chance and will end, leading to one certain outcome, unless you start learning the game of poker for itself.

JimmyV

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Jimmy,

I acknowledge I have something to learn here, as I've been unable to beat the Party 5/10.
What concepts am I unaware of?

Just give me a few tips if you can/would be so kind.

I'm going to try again to play at Party, so I've got to try to be more prepared to play against ultra-aggressive players who cap against me with
King high, cold-call 3 bets cold to see the river with a single-card inside straight draws, etc.

Joe M.

Ps. I'm not a totally new player who just started playing last month, etc. I've been playing for about 14 months now and have had profitable months each month - so I'm not a losing player. I do not use statistical tracking software, etc., but I played (mostly single tabling) for about 20- 30 hours a week over this 14 month time (however many hands this turns out to be). Not claiming to be very experienced or anything, just stating some facts (that will hopefully lead to some good advice from yall...).
And about my Party experience, I haven't really sustained play there - haven't even come close to reaching the long-run...I just deposited 400-500 bucks, took a shot, lost it, and did this a couple of times...One time I ran up 400$ to about $1000. then swung down to about $200. and left - the Party 5/10$ just seemed too hard to me is all - again, I'm not
used to players being ultra aggressive with their garbage hands/total bluffs...
Take care,

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many tables are you going to play? If it's only one or two you don't need to deposit anywhere near 200 BB all at once. I'm assuming of course that you have the money and just don't want to deposit that much. That's what your post implies.

[/ QUOTE ]


.... Variance does not decrease with fewer tables.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, this last post is very alarming. There are key poker concepts that you're clearly not even aware of. These sites are not slot machines that pay out in various ways; every table has nine different kinds of player on it, plus you. And I guarantee that anywhere above $2/$4 you're going to be the sucker who thinks there's some trick to getting his results to go up, besides simply paying more attention and playing better.

As if having the GPS to give you precise yardages, and other local knowledge, is going to cure you of that horrible duck-hook off the tee.

Play eighty thousand hands below 5/10 before tackling it; your success at other sites is pure chance and will end, leading to one certain outcome, unless you start learning the game of poker for itself.

JimmyV

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I strive to all of this and I still suck,lol People think this sh*t is easy????

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
craps...that's how TJ did it.

[/ QUOTE ]
you mean he won a couple of big buy in tournaments, played some craps and now has a 30-60 BR?

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, this last post is very alarming. There are key poker concepts that you're clearly not even aware of. These sites are not slot machines that pay out in various ways; every table has nine different kinds of player on it, plus you. And I guarantee that anywhere above $2/$4 you're going to be the sucker who thinks there's some trick to getting his results to go up, besides simply paying more attention and playing better.

As if having the GPS to give you precise yardages, and other local knowledge, is going to cure you of that horrible duck-hook off the tee.

Play eighty thousand hands below 5/10 before tackling it; your success at other sites is pure chance and will end, leading to one certain outcome, unless you start learning the game of poker for itself.

JimmyV

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Jimmy,

I acknowledge I have something to learn here, as I've been unable to beat the Party 5/10.
What concepts am I unaware of?

Just give me a few tips if you can/would be so kind.

I'm going to try again to play at Party, so I've got to try to be more prepared to play against ultra-aggressive players who cap against me with
King high, cold-call 3 bets cold to see the river with a single-card inside straight draws, etc.

Joe M.

Ps. I'm not a totally new player who just started playing last month, etc. I've been playing for about 14 months now and have had profitable months each month - so I'm not a losing player. I do not use statistical tracking software, etc., but I played (mostly single tabling) for about 20- 30 hours a week over this 14 month time (however many hands this turns out to be). Not claiming to be very experienced or anything, just stating some facts (that will hopefully lead to some good advice from yall...).
And about my Party experience, I haven't really sustained play there - haven't even come close to reaching the long-run...I just deposited 400-500 bucks, took a shot, lost it, and did this a couple of times...One time I ran up 400$ to about $1000. then swung down to about $200. and left - the Party 5/10$ just seemed too hard to me is all - again, I'm not
used to players being ultra aggressive with their garbage hands/total bluffs...
Take care,

[/ QUOTE ]

you should be playing 1/2 6 max, not 5/10.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

why is that?

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, this last post is very alarming. There are key poker concepts that you're clearly not even aware of. These sites are not slot machines that pay out in various ways; every table has nine different kinds of player on it, plus you. And I guarantee that anywhere above $2/$4 you're going to be the sucker who thinks there's some trick to getting his results to go up, besides simply paying more attention and playing better.

As if having the GPS to give you precise yardages, and other local knowledge, is going to cure you of that horrible duck-hook off the tee.

Play eighty thousand hands below 5/10 before tackling it; your success at other sites is pure chance and will end, leading to one certain outcome, unless you start learning the game of poker for itself.

JimmyV

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Jimmy,

I acknowledge I have something to learn here, as I've been unable to beat the Party 5/10.
What concepts am I unaware of?

Just give me a few tips if you can/would be so kind.

I'm going to try again to play at Party, so I've got to try to be more prepared to play against ultra-aggressive players who cap against me with
King high, cold-call 3 bets cold to see the river with a single-card inside straight draws, etc.

Joe M.

Ps. I'm not a totally new player who just started playing last month, etc. I've been playing for about 14 months now and have had profitable months each month - so I'm not a losing player. I do not use statistical tracking software, etc., but I played (mostly single tabling) for about 20- 30 hours a week over this 14 month time (however many hands this turns out to be). Not claiming to be very experienced or anything, just stating some facts (that will hopefully lead to some good advice from yall...).
And about my Party experience, I haven't really sustained play there - haven't even come close to reaching the long-run...I just deposited 400-500 bucks, took a shot, lost it, and did this a couple of times...One time I ran up 400$ to about $1000. then swung down to about $200. and left - the Party 5/10$ just seemed too hard to me is all - again, I'm not
used to players being ultra aggressive with their garbage hands/total bluffs...
Take care,

[/ QUOTE ]

you should be playing tiddliwinks , not 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

well, you said this:

[ QUOTE ]
the Party 5/10$ just seemed too hard to me is all - again, I'm not used to players being ultra aggressive with their garbage hands/total bluffs...

[/ QUOTE ]

which means you are not ready for 5/10. the 1/2 6 max game on Party is easy, and a good training ground for shorthanded play. then, you can move onto 3/6 6 max.

it really doesn't sound like you're fundamentally prepared for 5/10 6 max. I'm not trying to be mean, just giving my opinion.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

For one, I wouldn't consider 10/20 a "lower stake." It is fairly large and one you will want a minimum of a $7-$10k roll for. I don't know where you get these $500 is enough for 5/10 figures. I lose 50BB in short periods of time all the time and I beat that game for a decent amount.

If you want to build a roll you beat the smaller games. You don't take small amounts to higher stakes and hope to get lucky. I started playing .5/1 in March and have moved to 5/10 slowly by beating each limit as I moved up. Had I kept all my winnings instead of withdrawing I could probably be playing higher.

Seriously, there is no shortcut. Start small with at least 300BB for whatever limit you choose and move up from there. Always be ready to drop back down if you need to. In fact everytime I have moved up I ended up dropping back down temporarily.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

Thank you,
So, to answer my question(s):
Party 5/10 IS a profitable game to play...
But to play there you want to have at least 300 BBets (or $3000.).
And I should expect regular swings of $500. and not be phased/discouraged by these swings...

As far as dealing with the aggression (which noone has given me any advice on yet)
I gather I should focus on just being patient and waiting for a hand and letting the aggressive players throw money at me...
(i.e., folding a lot of hands early in the hand w/out a fight if I don't have anything made/outs to improve...).

I can't really play 1/2 or 2/4 anymore - the bets don't mean anything to me (or to making the other players fold anything...).
At that limit you have to play a totally different style and focus on just making and showing down the best hand b/c noone is
folding anything ever - early or late in the hand (at least no to the extent you
can wins hands w/out showing down at mid- to high limits - I shouldn't say "ever").

Thanks - and try to keep the insults coming. So far the berating has been pretting weak for what one should expect by posting here on 2 +2...lol

Is there such a place to play virtual Tiddlywinks online for real money?
Joe M.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

WEEEEEEEE!

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you,
So, to answer my question(s):
Party 5/10 IS a profitable game to play...
But to play there you want to have at least 300 BBets (or $3000.).
And I should expect regular swings of $500. and not be phased/discouraged by these swings...

As far as dealing with the aggression (which noone has given me any advice on yet)
I gather I should focus on just being patient and waiting for a hand and letting the aggressive players throw money at me...
(i.e., folding a lot of hands early in the hand w/out a fight if I don't have anything made/outs to improve...).

I can't really play 1/2 or 2/4 anymore - the bets don't mean anything to me (or to making the other players fold anything...).
At that limit you have to play a totally different style and focus on just making and showing down the best hand b/c noone is
folding anything ever - early or late in the hand (at least no to the extent you
can wins hands w/out showing down at mid- to high limits - I shouldn't say "ever").

Thanks - and try to keep the insults coming. So far the berating has been pretting weak for what one should expect by posting here on 2 +2...lol

Is there such a place to play virtual Tiddlywinks online for real money?
Joe M.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can expect swings of 1500$+.

I can't really play 1/2 or 2/4 anymore - the bets don't mean anything to me (or to making the other players fold anything...)


That statement right there, basically tells me you should stop playing altogether until you learn hte fundamentals.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

I love, you said, "I can't play 1/2 or 2/4 because those bets don't mean anything to me." Then that is exactly where you should be. If the money means something to you, then you are playing too high. Also, specific games aren't profitable, POKER is profitable, so long as you play it right.

As for hyper-agros, just know how to use them. know when to jack the pot up with two-pair, and when to call down with ace-high. When you get to higher levels, you'll learn that this aggressive play is the only way to win, but at the five and dime tables, players don't get it. Some of them get WAY too aggressive, but others do have it right and are simply on their way up. Take advantage of these agros and watch out for the players who are agro, but know what they are doing.

CSC

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

no offense guy, but if someone told me that they had $1500. downswings at
$5/10 longhand limit, then I'd say they just suck (and are flat out not beating the game).

Even if you push the most marginal edges and lose lots of big pots where you pumped a lot of money into, to lose $1500. at 5/10 means to me that you're playing against players that
are simply better than you...

I play at Pacific's $5/10 and it's odd if you have a $500. downswing - EVER.
The game is that easy. You always get paid off on your made hands and the players aren't aggressive.

If you're saying I need to invest $3000. and sometimes have to worry about a $1500. downswing - no thanks - I'll find another 5/10 game to play (that's easier).

You guys that beat party 5/10 - do you just barely scrape by or are you making $5K a month playing the game?

Joe M.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

Jesus, man. Is this a gimmick account or do we have a new DERB? "easy" games are typically very high in variance. It is ludicrous to expect to be able to avoid 150BB swings. Dude, go away. Go over to small stakes where they actually talk about 5/10. No one here plays 5/10 anymore. 15/30 is the lowest that we discuss (though I say that leaves 10/20 players with no home, but that is a discussion for another thread.)

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus, man. Is this a gimmick account or do we have a new DERB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Inside joke or something - don't get it.

[ QUOTE ]
"easy" games are typically very high in variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally - but not that high!

[ QUOTE ]
It is ludicrous to expect to be able to avoid 150BB swings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. Can't you expect to avoid even 100 Big Bet downswings if the game is full of bad players?

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, go away.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I want to stay and post.

[ QUOTE ]
Go over to small stakes where they actually talk about 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will consider it. Doesn't seem like many play that low here - sorry to waste your time.

[ QUOTE ]
No one here plays 5/10 anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you should consider it, if you can beat the game for 3-4 or 5 big bets /100 or whatever measure you use, as opposed to beating
a higher limit for only 1 BBet/100...

[ QUOTE ]
15/30 is the lowest that we discuss (though I say that leaves 10/20 players with no home, but that is a discussion for another thread.)

[/ QUOTE ]

10/20 is the beginning of mid-stakes. $9/18 and below are considered small, right?
I'm pretty sure this is the standard...

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
$5/10 longhand limit

[/ QUOTE ]

hehe nice!

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many tables are you going to play? If it's only one or two you don't need to deposit anywhere near 200 BB all at once. I'm assuming of course that you have the money and just don't want to deposit that much. That's what your post implies.

[/ QUOTE ]


.... Variance does not decrease with fewer tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he just meant you don't need as much money in your poker account to play only 1 or 2 tables.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

besides variance does decrease with fewer tables as you are able to make better decisions on fewer tables and tilt lasts for fewer hands. Law of diminishing returns. (or increasing returns in this case).

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

[ QUOTE ]
besides variance does decrease with fewer tables as you are able to make better decisions on fewer tables and tilt lasts for fewer hands. Law of diminishing returns. (or increasing returns in this case).

[/ QUOTE ]

If using 2 handguns at once makes you miss every shot with either of them, then you should only have been using one to begin with.

~D

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

You beat the party 5/10$ for a decent amount? How much would you say?
(hours you put in for how much you make...)

Do you multi table or play 1 table?

How much should I deposit? $500. isn't enough. And I don't want to dep. $3000.
Do you have $1000. swings there often?

Like I said I beat the 5/10 and 10/20 on other sites, just not Party,

Thx.,
Joe M.

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

above reply mainly intended for 'obsidian'...

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

" Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes "

Play good? or you could take BK's approach and just run good always. Or tommy's approach and play weird.

its up to you.

<font color="white">The simplicity of this game amuses me. </font>

-blake

Re: Fastest/Best way to build a roll for the upper-mid to high stakes
 

I also forgot to state, that Im talking 5/10 shorthanded. If you play the 5/10 full game, you are an idiot, and have no game selection. Enough so, that I didnt even THINK anyone was talking about 5/10 full. I beat 5/10 6 max for over 100k hands, 1.9bb/100, not spectacular, and I suck at poker, but the OP is why a sucker like me can make any kind of money.