Good Check Behind?
 

Utg is a tricky loose/aggro sob and mp is as calling station as they come. Will call gutters, inside, bottom pair, etc. So given this knowledge is my AQ check behind and fold on the turn correct? Also, mp hasn't been bluffing at all since I've sat down.

PS: being c'r by utg was a legit concern as he's done it many times during this short session.
PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3.66 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 4.66 BB

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

I think I need to start posting more difficult hands. This one seems somewhat standard but I'd like opinions anyway.

gotta get ur feet wet somewhere

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

I prefer betting the flop here. Our folding equity isn't too bad, and even if they don't fold, we can still check behind on the turn.

We can also easily fold to any aggression. I think betting is rather standard here with position.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer betting the flop here. Our folding equity isn't too bad, and even if they don't fold, we can still check behind on the turn.

We can also easily fold to any aggression. I think betting
is rather standard here with position.

[/ QUOTE ]

even tho utg is a habitual c'r and mp will call with any pair, any straight draw, any flush draw, ace high, and probably king high with an ok kicker. I luv beting these boards and getting the turn free card but I decided to let it go because of that nutso utg.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

Why are we giving a free card to someone who makes really bad calls? Why aren't we allowing him to play like a retard and make mistakes?

Arts Right...
 

ArturiusX is right on this one. I think a bet compulsory. You could very well still be ahead in this hand and you have position, so you can outplay them after the flop as well.

Even though you didn't improve on the flop, they MIGHT not of improved either. Yet they could of gotten a piece of it. Maybe like a flush draw with one or two clubs or a straight draw. Giving a free card in this position when you have fold equity as Art said would just be a blunder for you.

And if the UTG is C/R habitually then 3bet him. I would start to take those lightly. If he is a tricky thinking player he could think that you have two high cards (which you do) and are betting on air. Betting him back and tell him you won't be bossed around. And as for the calling station... Well he is gonna call with anything. If he is calling with a inside straight draw, so be it. If thats the case you got the best hand. If he has bottom pair, well he has you beat but you have 6 outs to improve.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

We can also easily fold to any aggression.

I don't really think so, most draws will checkraise this flop and there are tons of draws here. Sometimes I think you need to commit yourself to showdown in situations like this if it gets HU, providing that the turn isn't the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or some other terrible card, in which case you can fold.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We can also easily fold to any aggression.

I don't really think so, most draws will checkraise this flop and there are tons of draws here. Sometimes I think you need to commit yourself to showdown in situations like this if it gets HU, providing that the turn isn't the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or some other terrible card, in which case you can fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's an ass like that, yeah sure showdown it up. But against most opponents I don't like getting to involved.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

Checking behind is fine here. W/the flop containing 2 cards in the playable zone and both a strait and flush draw, I think your folding equity is minimal. Given the fact that UTG is a habitual checkraiser and will checkraise any draw/pair checking behind is probably best. There are many cards that can help your hand on the turn and seeing that turn card should be important to you.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

3-handed this seems like an easy bet.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we giving a free card to someone who makes really bad calls? Why aren't we allowing him to play like a retard and make mistakes?

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c he not making a mistake by calling w/a draw. He could easily be a head and our hand isn't worth that much. If he's got a flush draw w/out an ace he's got 15 outs to beat us (w/an ace he's still got 12), any oesd has at least 11 outs to beat us, and gutters have 7+ to beat us. This guy wouldn't be making a huge mistake by calling our flop bet w/any draw and obviously would be correct to call w/any pair.

By checking here and betting the turn if checked to, we get to 1) see the turn card which could help us by pairing our hand or picking up an OESD and 2) make UTG make a mistake by calling w/his 7 outers

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

flop is a very standard bet imo

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

I bet this flop about 75% of the time. I probably check if I've been getting checkraised a lot or if I haven't shown down any winners and I think I'm likely to get called by 2 players. I think the main reason to bet a flop like this is to get HU on the turn so that your turn bet can be profitable (plus the chance you improve).

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking behind is fine here. W/the flop containing 2 cards in the playable zone and both a strait and flush draw, I think your folding equity is minimal. Given the fact that UTG is a habitual checkraiser and will checkraise any draw/pair checking behind is probably best. There are many cards that can help your hand on the turn and seeing that turn card should be important to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

well the reason I agree with him is cus utg will c'r light and I have no problem 3 betting hu against the idiot but mp will cc really light with b.s draws and even Ace high at times. That's why I didnt see as worth it. If I 3 bet the pot after he c'r and mp cc's (almost a guarantee on such a draw heavy board like this) I'd just be pumping up someones draw and giving them more equity for their good draws.

Against 2 tag's I see where this board has much more fold equity but since I got a station who luvs seeing turns and a maniac who luvs to c'r, I figure I've got an explosive combination so why light the fuse?

my 2 pesos

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

Another thing I forgot to mention is that Mp will sometimes c'r me with top pair or just check/call with top pair (since I raised pre-flop c'r is unlikely with just top pair). So that's another thing to consider. So I might already be behind.

I like to hear more arguements against my check tho.

tks

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

[ QUOTE ]
flop is a very standard bet imo

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Why? Do you really think any of these guys will fold? The board is ultra coordinated and any 2 cards has the proper odds to call. Add in the distinct possibilty of getting c/red and I like this bet even less

P.S. - not to pick on you b/c others have done it as well but one liners like "this is a very standard bet" or "bet the flop" suck and add very little insight into the hand

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

I think you bet the flop because you might still have the best hand (since its 3 handed), you have some chance to make them fold, and you dont want to give flush draws free cards.

Also, if you raise preflop then check behind on the flop, you are showing a lot of weakness and give them the initiative to take the hand from you. If you frequently bet here, you can keep them guessing as to what your hand is.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

Two reasons not to bet this board:

1) draw heavy boards decrease your chances of winning

2) CO won't bluff the turn but will call the flop

3) UTG may check raise with the best hand, forcing CO to drop his b/d draw and forcing hero to call down

Reasons to bet

1)UTG may check-raise with a worse and fold out CO's b/d drawing hands.

2)Hero may get it HU with the best hand

Generally, I prefer betting into 2 players even on a coordinated board, because you only need to be ahead like 1 out of 100 times since you'll improve 13% of the time anyway. But when one of the players never bluffs and calls most flops, and furthermore, is in between me and the guy who can push me off the best hand (and that guy is first to act) then I prefer checking.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

Bet the flop. (I think I'd bet this flop 99% when I play - the only other 1% would be if I'd been terribly LAG the last few hands and people have started to notice).


Then, check the turn through.


Reasses on the river.



Adam

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop is a very standard bet imo

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Why? Do you really think any of these guys will fold? The board is ultra coordinated and any 2 cards has the proper odds to call. Add in the distinct possibilty of getting c/red and I like this bet even less

P.S. - not to pick on you b/c others have done it as well but one liners like "this is a very standard bet" or "bet the flop" suck and add very little insight into the hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Both players have to fold 1 time in 6 to make the bet profitable just by itself. But this is not the only concern, if it was just for this reason I probably check as T9-boards hit a lot of limping hands.
What happens a lot more often is that one of them folds, the other calls and you take it down with a turn bet (depending on the card of course). If only one sees the turn, he has to fold only 1 in 4 times to it. Add to that the possibility that he calls, misses his draw and you win with a free showdown or that you hit your pair on the river (maybe getting another bet).
The bet also might get you a free card (if a J hits for example, you probably want to use it).

Your hand might be best on the flop, by checking the flop you lose your initiative and pretty much forfeit the pot unless the turn card is good for you. If they donk you dont know where you are and you dont want to call down the big streets in a small pot with A-high.

Lets assume both called your flop bet and the K comes on the turn just like in the real hand. Most of the time they both check to you. Now you can use your position and decide based on your opponents whether it is more profitable to semi-bluff at the K (its a good bluffing card as they cant have 2 overcards anymore, you raised preflop so they are scared of you holding one and it is less likely that they have one because they didnt raise PF) or take the free card. The decision would be based on your feeling how likely it is that one of them is going to CR you and how likely it would be to take the pot down there.

To sum it up, I think the pros of a flopbet outweigh the cons even if UTG CRed you in some hands before.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

You would bet into a guy that will call you, but won't bluff you out of any pot? Why? I especially don't understand it when this CS is protecting you from the one LAG in the hand, and you forfeit that protection by setting the LAG up for a check raise.

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You would bet into a guy that will call you, but won't bluff you out of any pot? Why? I especially don't understand it when this CS is protecting you from the one LAG in the hand, and you forfeit that protection by setting the LAG up for a check raise.

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I bet this flop for a # of reasons:

* fold equity
* I may have the best hand
* I have additional equity in that there are a number of ways my hand can improve by the river.
* It's a crucial step in getting me cheaply to the river/showdown - in that it'll earn me a free card later on if need be.
* I maintain my aggression thereby maintaining my 'control' over the pot.



I would then check the turn because (assuming I got called by both villains):

* I was called in two spots on the flop, despite my ongoing aggression - indicating there's a good chance I'm behind.

* I have gained additional outs, and getting check-raised would really suck here (NOTE THE READ ON UTG as being "tricky").




Adam

Re: Good Check Behind?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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You would bet into a guy that will call you, but won't bluff you out of any pot? Why? I especially don't understand it when this CS is protecting you from the one LAG in the hand, and you forfeit that protection by setting the LAG up for a check raise.


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I bet this flop for a # of reasons:

* fold equity
* I may have the best hand
* I have additional equity in that there are a number of ways my hand can improve by the river.
* It's a crucial step in getting me cheaply to the river/showdown - in that it'll earn me a free card later on if need be.
* I maintain my aggression thereby maintaining my 'control' over the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]


Well, betting certainly should be the default play. After all you only need to be ahead once in a long while for it to be profitable. But I don't like building a pot against a CS and a LAG. Often the LAG raises, the calling station calls, and hero ends up spending 1 bb while accomplishing nothing. Sometimes the CS folds, but even then hero has to spend an extra bb to see a showdown. Where if hero checks he can often induce the cs to bet and hero escapes without wasting a single sb extra, or the LAG bets and the CS calls and now hero can safely fold UI, or LAG bets and CS folds and Hero sees the showdown cheaper than if he bet the flop. The CS and LAG and their positions plus the coordinated board makes the default play less reliable.