a 150 hand i forgot about
 

This hand takes place against Paul, who is an aggressive player but one who is young and unafraid to lay down when he thinks he is beat. Since I have been at the table, he hasn't lost a showdown(even when putting in action on previous streets). He has been stealing very aggressively and isn't afraid to make a move at the turn.

Paul open raises the button and I call with Ks9h in the BB.

The flop is 8sTs3d. I check-raise, he calls.

The turn is a Jh. I bet, he raises, I three-bet, he pauses and grimaces and calls.

The river is a 4, I bet.
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

What was your thought process?

I'm assuming you decided you both picked up draws on the turn and were betting him off a missed draw. Isn't it just as likely that he had a J and was calling you down?

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

this is such spewing to me. Obviously his range of stealing hands is large here so u cant assume 10-8-rag missed him, and u have k9 high...check fold

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is such spewing to me. Obviously his range of stealing hands is large here so u cant assume 10-8-rag missed him, and u have k9 high...check fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi worm, this is not a standard line. This is a once in a while line against someone who has been stealing very aggressively but who doesn't showdown as lightly as most.
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

I am with you until the turn where I bet and call the raise.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am with you until the turn where I bet and call the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about that, but it gives me no chance to win unimproved and makes my future flop raises in blind defense scenarios lose a lot of steam. Since I will have 11 outs most of the time I am behind and he will showdown, there is a big possibility that he will fold many better hands unimproved on the river, and there is acutally a chance he'll fold right there on the turn, I went ahead and three-bet. There is also a decent chance he is raising a naked ace here, a nine himself, or a flush draw.
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

you made this play because you thought you had a strong read on a very abnormal opponent. only you know what made you make this play. its possible you were right.

i cant imagine the opponent i would make this play against, and i suspect this was probably a poor play.

why not wait to the river to bluff?

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
What was your thought process?

I'm assuming you decided you both picked up draws on the turn and were betting him off a missed draw. Isn't it just as likely that he had a J and was calling you down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's just as likely, but it is certainly possible. I do think it's equally probable that he has a ten or a Jack - and I am saying "neither of these scares me." This opponent, for example, would be extremely unlikely to showdown an unimproved AT.
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

Honestly james, and i could be off here, i think calling the turn raise and donking the river gets him off the same range of hands as your line. Hard for him to call a river bet with A9 or or any underpair to board if you do that. It's tricky since you have many outs here, i think your line is ok from time to time. This all said, he raised preflop, smooth called a flop c/r, and then popped the turn. This is also merit to calling and folding the river UI...

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
you made this play because you thought you had a strong read on a very abnormal opponent. only you know what made you make this play. its possible you were right.

i cant imagine the opponent i would make this play against, and i suspect this was probably a poor play.

why not wait to the river to bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it only costs one more bet to call the river and it costs 2 more to call when I bluff at the turn. You suspect it was probably a poor play, but would you showdown an unimproved 8, A9, or a ten against an opponent who so far has not gotten out of line?
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand takes place against Paul, who is an aggressive player but one who is young and unafraid to lay down when he thinks he is beat. Since I have been at the table, he hasn't lost a showdown(even when putting in action on previous streets). He has been stealing very aggressively and isn't afraid to make a move at the turn.

Paul open raises the button and I call with Ks9h in the BB.

The flop is 8sTs3d. I check-raise, he calls.

The turn is a Jh. I bet, he raises, I three-bet, he pauses and grimaces and calls.

The river is a 4, I bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

my thought process:

meh, good, great.

Barron

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

based on his grimace it seems like he probably has something like QT for a pair and a gutshot. I hope you got him to muck it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

Why is the bet meh? Can he really check after he c/r'ed the flop against this opponent?

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is the bet meh? Can he really check after he c/r'ed the flop against this opponent?

[/ QUOTE ]

you misread my post gabe.

i assume james understands but i'll explain it.

at first glance, the hand, as a whole is meh. he's likely putting in a lot of money trying to increase fold equity.

but then it looks good. it turns into a good play because of the sensitivity of the fold equity function of THIS particular player as it relates to his turn raise.

then it looks great. its so likely that the above two analyses understate this individual player's ability to fold for each additional bet.

i liked it more the 3rd time than the 2nd time and the 2nd time more than the first time.

thus, meh, good, great.

Barron

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
based on his grimace it seems like he probably has something like QT for a pair and a gutshot. I hope you got him to muck it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if he didn't Paul will now be calling him down with bottom pair for the rest of his natural life...

lf

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

ah, i thought meh was the turn bet, good was the turn 3 bet, and great was the river bet. Seemed odd... This is why i should expressly keep my activites to playing mid-stakes poker. I am actually decent at it and can't [censored] it up.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
would you showdown an unimproved 8, A9, or a ten against an opponent who so far has not gotten out of line?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would rarely raise the turn with an 8 or a9 against a tight opponent who c/r the flop. if i did with a T, yeah i would probably fold to a turn 3bet. if i had a pair and draw i would probably call down.

i just dont think he has a T and folds it enough for you to be getting anything out of this.

bluffing the river is slightly better because hes more likely to believe it- because you can't be semi-bluffing. but it still probably sucks.

i think its much easier to beat this type of opponent with value bets and by inducing bluffs than by trying to out-bluff him.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

that grimace means aw shucks i have to pay you off even though i think im beat.

anyway i hate this hand. that T and 8 are too playing zone to make the play you make on the flop. the J just makes things worse even though it gives you a nice draw. this hand is a mess, the sort of mess i used to get myself into all the time, oftentimes with good results i should note. purging hands like this from your game can only help.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
that grimace means aw shucks i have to pay you off even though i think im beat.

anyway i hate this hand. that T and 8 are too playing zone to make the play you make on the flop. the J just makes things worse even though it gives you a nice draw. this hand is a mess, the sort of mess i used to get myself into all the time, oftentimes with good results i should note. purging hands like this from your game can only help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I thought you'd like it of all people. Online this play is a lot less valid, but surely plays like this work live in relatively tight games, no? From my experience last week there was far less paying off than high limit online games and far more "tough folds," sometimes face up. I do wonder if a hand like this has a place in my arsenal even if it's done 1/1000 of the time - and I think that it does. The value of getting called down and being unapolagetic about the play can go miles if you are going to play with this particular player(and the rest of the people at the table) for an extended period of time.
-James

EDIT: I should point out that of all streets, the flop is the one I like the least in spite of my strong backdoor draws.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

"This is a once in a while line"

then why not 3 bet preflop and get things started off right?

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
"This is a once in a while line"

then why not 3 bet preflop and get things started off right?

[/ QUOTE ]

An intriguing option that I probably don't pursue with hands like this quite enough.
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

i agree that this is much better live than online.

i still dont know why you assume that he has a draw or something less than top pair. couldnt this be 2 pr or set or straight?

it costs a lot to find out if he has crap.
and if he's bluffing all the time on the turn you are making a lot of money on your OK hands. why mess around with your bad ones?

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

part of me thinks youre right and that you should make plays like this, and im worried that i may be unable to comment fairly because while ive played higher it was with mixed success. but the other part of me thinks that you are giving up too much here without a pair at least for backup.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

i think the thing is to recognize he's been messing with your blinds too much. then think about what his weakneses are. not just can he lay hands down, but what sort of hands does he overvalue, what sort of plays does he like to make and hate to have made against him, any tells, etc?

then wait for just the right hand and decide right then that you are going to do everything you can to win a certain pot. 3 bet preflop and then forget about what you have in the hole and use the flop to determine what youre going to represent. pick two hands. for instance if it comes JsTh6h you can try to act like both AK and a backdoor heart draw with KJ. do whatever you can to represent that hand in his mind.

ok ive blathered enough. it probably wont work ever if he's got top pair. really good players sometimes start a bluff and then give up just in time to save a bet or three.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think the thing is to recognize he's been messing with your blinds too much. then think about what his weakneses are. not just can he lay hands down, but what sort of hands does he overvalue, what sort of plays does he like to make and hate to have made against him, any tells, etc?

then wait for just the right hand and decide right then that you are going to do everything you can to win a certain pot. 3 bet preflop and then forget about what you have in the hole and use the flop to determine what youre going to represent. pick two hands. for instance if it comes JhTh6c you can try to act like both AK and nut heart draw. do whatever you can to represent that hand in his mind.

ok ive blathered enough. it probably wont work ever if he's got top pair. really good players sometimes start a bluff and then give up just in time to save a bet or three.

[/ QUOTE ]

You describe what I was doing on the flop - except that I didn't 3 bet preflop. I am representing any myriad of 2 pairs, sets, staights and other wonderful hands that he isn't going to love showing down 1 pair against. I am saying that this jack has either changed nothing or improved my hand. And just in case he forgets to fold, I still have a lot of ways to get there. It gets to a point where a guy is stealing from you often enough that you can't just keep folding preflop or calling preflop and folding the flop. Sometimes the cards don't fully cooperate quickly enough for you to tell him to keep his dirty hands away from your [censored] blinds, and you need to slow him down in spite of them.

It's funny, because I am really uncomfortable making plays like this at pots. The good thing is, I am not forced to make them very often.
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

ok here's one really nasty thing you couldve done on this hand to induce the laydown:

flat call the turn raise and donk bet the river. that might do the trick. the turn 3 bet in a c/o-bb steal war just screams desperation. it puts it in the realm of okay either this guy has noticed i make laydowns and he's bluffing or he's got the nuts. takes the pressure off and makes calling down easy.

but the smooth call/donk bet says to him, "i have something and ive had something the whole time, and i think youre fos and weak enough to pay me off", that will embarass a young guy into folding enough i believe, meaning he'll be too embarassed to "pay you off" there.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok here's one really nasty thing you couldve done on this hand to induce the laydown:

flat call the turn raise and donk bet the river. that might do the trick. the turn 3 bet in a c/o-bb steal war just screams desperation. it puts it in the realm of okay either this guy has noticed i make laydowns and he's bluffing or he's got the nuts. takes the pressure off and makes calling down easy.

but the smooth call/donk bet says to him, "i have something and ive had something the whole time, and i think youre fos and weak enough to pay me off", that will embarass a young guy into folding enough i believe, meaning he'll be too embarassed to "pay you off" there.


[/ QUOTE ]

ggbman suggested that as well, and I think it is a similarly good line - I just think the psychological aspect of having to call 2 more bets would weigh more on *me personally* which is why I assume others feel the same way. I think it's probably player dependent as to which line will induce the fold more often - your reasoning is sound if the opponent is thinking that way, but against weaker opponents I will be more inclined to call with marginal hands on the river in situations like you describe because I so often see desperation bet outs on missed draws(the spades in this example).

Another way I think about it is this. Let's say I post a hand where I raise on the button with A8o(or maybe even ATo). The BB who is a young player who seems solid enough but who hasn't gotten out of line calls the bb. The flop is T83 with 2 spades, and he check-raises. I decide to raise any turn for a free showdown if it's scary or for straight value. The turn is a jack, and now there are a lot of hands he'll call with if I raise but maybe won't pay off a value bet on the river, so I raise. Woops, he three-bets. I have the odds to try to improve to two pair or better so I call. The river bricks - he bets out and I fold. Or maybe I call and he shows JT and I feel like a fool. Either way, a lot of plans to raise the turn can go haywire(especially when an overcard hits) and being able to raise or reraise without the best hand from time to time can't be a horrible image to have.
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

Mike,

It makes me really happy to hear you write this. You have no idea how right you are... then again, I suspect that maybe you do...

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mike,

It makes me really happy to hear you write this. You have no idea how right you are... then again, I suspect that maybe you do...

[/ QUOTE ]

What situations are correct ones to three-bet (semi)bluff the turn, then? Some must be, because if there aren't then your turn three-bet gives complete information, which I hear is bad.
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand takes place against Paul, who is an aggressive player but one who is young and unafraid to lay down when he thinks he is beat. Since I have been at the table, he hasn't lost a showdown(even when putting in action on previous streets). He has been stealing very aggressively and isn't afraid to make a move at the turn.

Paul open raises the button and I call with Ks9h in the BB.

The flop is 8sTs3d. I check-raise, he calls.

The turn is a Jh. I bet, he raises, I three-bet, he pauses and grimaces and calls.

The river is a 4, I bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite suprised worm33 doesn't like this. I like it a lot.

Good hand.

Your flop line is one of those "once in awhile lines"...and I know you mentioned that but I think it's worth mentioning again. Start doing it too much and you are being a little too reckless...

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand takes place against Paul, who is an aggressive player but one who is young and unafraid to lay down when he thinks he is beat. Since I have been at the table, he hasn't lost a showdown(even when putting in action on previous streets). He has been stealing very aggressively and isn't afraid to make a move at the turn.

Paul open raises the button and I call with Ks9h in the BB.

The flop is 8sTs3d. I check-raise, he calls.

The turn is a Jh. I bet, he raises, I three-bet, he pauses and grimaces and calls.

The river is a 4, I bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite suprised worm33 doesn't like this. I like it a lot.

Good hand.

Your flop line is one of those "once in awhile lines"...and I know you mentioned that but I think it's worth mentioning again. Start doing it too much and you are being a little too reckless...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed - in this particular situation he had been stealing frequently(and lightly) and it seemed like an okay time to play at it. The turn seemed to be a perfect card to keep my foot on the gas after he raised as I envisioned what I'd think with a hand like KT or A8 in his shoes - "Oh [censored]."
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

IMO he has you on JT and was hoping to counterfiet you on the river. I like it.

EDIT: I like the turn. I'm not sure i don't fold the flop though. yikes.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

I'm not saying. Too many prying eyes on this board.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand takes place against Paul, who is an aggressive player but one who is young and unafraid to lay down when he thinks he is beat. Since I have been at the table, he hasn't lost a showdown(even when putting in action on previous streets). He has been stealing very aggressively and isn't afraid to make a move at the turn.

Paul open raises the button and I call with Ks9h in the BB.

The flop is 8sTs3d. I check-raise, he calls.

The turn is a Jh. I bet, he raises, I three-bet, he pauses and grimaces and calls.

The river is a 4, I bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite suprised worm33 doesn't like this. I like it a lot.

Good hand.

Your flop line is one of those "once in awhile lines"...and I know you mentioned that but I think it's worth mentioning again. Start doing it too much and you are being a little too reckless...

[/ QUOTE ]



Just wait till you have something. Flop an open ender, a double gutter....a pair???? I dont know im of the opinion that in a full game against a good player out of posistion that im going to wait till i have one of the above before i go spraying chips all over.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
it turns into a good play because of the sensitivity of the fold equity function of THIS particular player as it relates to his turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sensitivity of the fold equity function. Good stuff.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying. Too many prying eyes on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hhahahahahahahahhaaa. It's limit poker, dude. Anyone who can exploit your response to that post is way better than you anyway.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

James,

Lines like this work very well for me. That is because I often play tighter and a little nittier than most of my opponents, and they all know that. If your opponent is suspicious of you in the least, this is chip-spewing. So, you tell me. Was it a good line?

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

There are a lot of draws on the board, but I don't know if that means he could be semibluffing or he has a weak hand that needs to call the turn for one more bet and fold the river - or if he has a made hand of sorts with outs that he needs to call for one more bet, then will feel comitted to call on the river. I think it's the last one though.

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
James,

Lines like this work very well for me. That is because I often play tighter and a little nittier than most of my opponents, and they all know that. If your opponent is suspicious of you in the least, this is chip-spewing. So, you tell me. Was it a good line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Diablo - I believed my image at the time was of the tight and nitty variety. This was my first night in town in several months and I hadn't made much noise at all. I would have seen me as a young kid, probably playing above his head since I am sure that Paul did not recognize me. That's my point, I think that good players so rarely bluff raise or reraise(because few situations warrant it in limit hold 'em) that I think you need to be capable of both to be as successful as you can be against the best players. BK has told me that I get out of line on the turn all the time - which isn't true - but the few times that I have have been so memorable that thinking players like him feel the need to pay me off with suboptimal hands in the future in case I am running them over.
-James

Re: a 150 hand i forgot about
 

[ QUOTE ]
is way better than you anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my problem [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]