SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

party 1/2.
i raise JdJs cold stone UTG. villain coldcalls EMP, everyone else folds.
villain is a regular in the game... he plays a little too loose, but hes ok after the flop... really typical 1/2 internet player, i think.

flop comes down A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
i bet, he calls. hmmmm.
turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
i check, he bets (of course), i call.
river Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
i check, he bets....
okok. call or fold? what can i put him on here?
i cant put him on 66 bc i assume hed raise the flop hoping to get action from me if i had an A... most of the hand he might play preflop that make a flush arent possible bc i can see the Jd (and the A)...
is he really gonna coldcall EMP with A high? i fell like ppl are going to call an A63 flop with no hand just hoping i will check/fold a PP on the turn, so i feel like my hand is often still good on fourth, but then he bets the riv.
do ppl bluff here in internet games? in live games ppl bluff here all the time, but live players muck JJ w/ the diamond on the end... internet players, not so much.

so... should i be looking him up on the end?

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

I like the turn play because I hate being raised in that spot. The river is complicated b/c of it though...when you check the turn, he will be induced to bet anything hoping you fold a pair. What would he peel with on the flop that doesn't include an ace? That's the question. Some people make a call on the flop with any two (77, 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], garbage) just to see what you do on the turn and if they can take the pot at some point. If this guy is like this, you must check call the river. If he's the kind to only call flop with an ace or diamond draw or strong hand, check fold the river. I don't think you can go that wrong calling though b/c you've shown weakness on two streets. But a read would be helpful with your decision on the end.

Jeff

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

I mostly put him on AJ/AQ. But I call just in case he has 99 or TT and is pushing your apparent weakness, and to look up his CC hand in this situation.

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

I gave this some thought before and want to give it some more detail now because i still wasn't sure before. First thoughts were pocket pairs were more likely preflop, but ace pairs more likely on each postflop street. I couldn't work out if they were 6:1 more likely though, given how close these situations are and a little weight either way can change the answer i'd decide by judging if i thought he was sophisticated to try and move me off my pair, most people def. check behind with a pocket pair here and unless i have reason to believe he is different i'd fold. If that was close, i'd go from the timing of his bets, if they are almost auto it means he has no decision and is simply vallue betting his ace pair, if he has 99 on the river he def has more than a quick decision.

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I Some people make a call on the flop with any two (77, 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], garbage) just to see what you do on the turn and if they can take the pot at some point. If this guy is like this, you must check call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]this is the point of my post... if i believe he wil peel with aforementioned hands, do i still have to call a bet on the end? looks like im calling, no?

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

Looking over my hands with this player he will cold call w/ ATo hands and low pairs. He does go to showdown a lot. I'm not sure if he would cold call w/ 88-TT. I'm more inclined to think he would 3 bet these hands. The only hand I see is KQo w/ a diam that you beat and many more you don't. Although this player is a LAG, I think I fold the river.

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only hand I see is KQo w/ a diam that you beat and many more you don't.

[/ QUOTE ]
no, i dont beat that. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah. maybe i didnt make it clear in the OP, but this guy is def LAG.

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

having never played that game, but going on your definition of the player and my online experience id say definitely fold .

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

fold

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

"maybe i didnt make it clear in the OP, but this guy is def LAG."

no you definitely didnt make that clear. so expect a lot of people to say fold. his pv numbers wouldve helped..

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

[ QUOTE ]
"maybe i didnt make it clear in the OP, but this guy is def LAG."

no you definitely didnt make that clear. so expect a lot of people to say fold. his pv numbers wouldve helped..

[/ QUOTE ]

I have him at 30/18/1.33 over 6500 hands.

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

"I have him at 30/18/1.33 over 6500 hands."

ok so he's not lag postflop. and he's dumb/self taught/loose enough to play a bunch of bad aces that way. i know this type of player they are everywhere. so fold.

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

If you don't think he has an ace why not check-raise? If you're wrong and he has AT/AJ he might fold it.

If you do think he has an ace, why call on the turn?

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're wrong and he has AT/AJ he might fold it.


[/ QUOTE ]
never. gonna. happen.
[ QUOTE ]
If you do think he has an ace, why call on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]i dont think he has an A, think he has two cards.
i have a Jhigh flush draw.

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

"If you're wrong and he has AT/AJ he might fold it."

i still remember doing this once against a certain player in the commerce 1-2 game. i had ATs and had called his raise preflop and he bet the flop and i just called and then he checkraised me on the turn and i folded. i had been playing crappy and at the point he c/red me i just realised from some tells/his demeanor that it was so likely he had AK and i wanted so bad to make a good laydown and not pay him off. yet it was so so hard to do. and i still remember doing it. and i play pretty good. so there's no way on earth a bad or mediocre player is ever finding that fold and i do mean ever.

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

i fold. however, if your going to call the turn, then i prefer that you bet it. he might fold. if he raises you fold, if he calls your probably beat (and your done). by cheacking and calling you find out nothing, and you are now in the same position on the river, hence your question. for 1 big bet on the turn, you know if he has you (and save the river call), so bet it if you are going to call anyway. again, i fold.

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

Are you taking into account the flush draw in your turn bet/fold line?

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

hi amulet... iappreciate your advice, but bet/folding this turn is a really bad play. youre just giving away money bet/folding here.
check/call and bet/call are the only plays on the turn... my question is about the river.

not sure this is such an easy fold...
 

Would it be a dick move to post his PP name? Anyway if he is a thinking, tricky player its kinda an interesting spot. I think you have to call here. The reason is that the third diamond came on turn. If we look at the hand from his persepctive, if he is capable of floating the flop and betting when checked to on the turn with something like 55,77, or whatever, he might have reason to fire the river when you check.

When you bet the flop and then check call the turn, he is defintely gonna give you a pair of some sort, obv. not an ace. So he very well might put you on maybe 88-KK with diamond, and could be thinking there is a reasonable chance you called the turn not to showdown but to try and improve on the river. If the turn had came a small blank or something, and not a diamond I'd say its a pretty easy fold. But since the third flush card hit on the turn, it changes the way he might be reading your hand and swings it to a call IMO. The fact that the queen came on the river might also temp him to bluff at it with say 77, since it makes it that much harder to call with something like jacks or tens, even though it doesnt factor in with the rest of the hand so much.

If you have been calling down pretty light and you think he probably takes notice of that stuff then I'd probably still fold. I have no idea what he thinks of you and what he thinks you think of him and thats kinda everything in these spots IMO. Im assuming you guys dont have a real long history together so not a lot of that stuff is gonna matter too much here.

Re: SIMPLE 100/200 HAND. RIVER DECISION.
 

curious: did he post utg off the jump when he entered? if so, he might've done it for metagame reasons. or did he post in the co cold stone? that info could help me diagnose this situation better.

he's LAG, EMP, probly has the nuts everytime he plays. judging from the action i put him square on 45 of diamonds. he missed a bet on the flop by not raising but he probly was looking at scott fischman nudes. (pm for links)

he hits his straight+flush on the turn with a straight flush redraw and bets. you call thinking JJ with the flush draw is good, but it isn't.

another overcard on the river, you check, he bets, you call, you lose. pretty simple, eh?

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

RESULTSIZZLE
 

steve gs post was quite good, i think, and my thought process was similar to his regarding the hand... if the turn hadnt been a third diamond, id still have check/called, but id have readily check/folded the river...
i thought it was prob kind of obvious that id picjed up the flush draw and because of this i payed off the river getting 6:1...
he rolled 22. it was good. fvck.

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

i understand why you want to see the river for the D. i think the river is a fold. as for the turn; if you assume you are behind on the turn, from the range of hands he could easily have a bigger diamond (or a set). so several of your outs may not be good. that is why i think it is a fold, close but a fold. sorry i should have said this in my first post.

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i understand why you want to see the river for the D. i think the river is a fold. if you assume you are behind on the turn, from the range of hands he probably has it is almost 50/50 he has a diamond. so only 1/2 of your outs at best are good. that is why i think it is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]sorry, but all of this is wrong.\
i dont assume im behind.
he does not have a d 1/2 he time.
1/2 my outs are good at best? which half? where are you?
im surprised you didnt suggest a PF fold.

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

the preflop fold was cute. so many get into argument instead of constructive conversation. nice to see a sense of humor here.

i think you are behind, if your not then i and most other posters are wrong. however, if you are behind, as you know, there are 9 cards to hit your flush. of those if he had a set 2 are gone. if he has AK, with 4 kings not seen, he is 25% to have K of D. if he has AQ, he is also 33% to have Q of D (would this player call your raise with AQ, in your initial post you seem to say yes). to both these hands you are behind now and the flush will cost you more. i play 100/200 often and while there are bad loose players, i think if he calls a turn bet and are behind. it is close to the correct price to continue (assuming your behind) for the flush, but i think it is a slight fold. (a case could be made for the two J's which are likely outs and support your call). if you bet the turn, he might fold. if your correct and there is a good chance you were ahead.......then nice read.

so what happened?

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

[ QUOTE ]
so what happened?

[/ QUOTE ]i called and lost.

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

sorry. to what hand?

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

are you just messing with me?
(maybe check "results" post)

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

no. just missed it

Re:DECISION WAS ON THE TURN.
 

so much for clearly being behind on the flop...

Re: RESULTSIZZLE
 

[ QUOTE ]

he rolled 22. it was good. fvck.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the heck are you upset about? You played the hand perfectly -- as it happens, in precisely the way you would have if you could see his cards. You're living the Fundamental Theorem of Poker here, willy-nilly, on the first three streets. And yes you have the odds to call the river against this guy -- look at the flop call he made!

Well played, pat yourself on the back for losing almost the minimum.

JimmyV