This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

Does it seem to anyone else as though greenstein is somewhat cocky in some of the stuff he's saying. He was asked about his strategy in tournaments and ofcourse goes on talking about how he's playing to win just so he can get interviewed and talk about his charities since he's not playing for the money anyway. Well thanks, we already know that, u've said it plenty of times. Actually I am enjoying the commentary but the part that annoyed me was how he sounded like he was talking "down" to raymer. They were discussing accumulating chips based on how tight the other players are playing to make the final table and barry semed as though he didnt understand the point greg was making. Greg was not disagreeing with what barry was saying but barry kept sounded as though he was trying to make a point to prove greg wrong. "Well greg how much experience to you have short handed in big tournaments?" Greg: "Not much". When all greg was trying to do was say that with the two tables joined the players felt better about folding because he felt this made the other players theink they were all losing collectively.

I dunno, I have no problem with barry but this was the vibe I got from that little part of the commentary where it semed as though barry was somewhat "arguing" or trying to prove a point but really greg was not disagreing at all. Greg even said "I would never disagree with that barry but what im saying is..." And barry keeps cutting him off...

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

yes, saying that the big cash game players would have double digit bracelets. give me a break.

and raymer talking about a good player winning 3 out of 10 SNGs is absurd. If any good player could do that, they would never leave the house.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

Wow.. greg raymer went on to talk about how he will show a big hand when raising in position so that this leaves it fresh in the players minds next time that he had a big hand. Greenstein immediately cuts him off and says "yeah in tournaments against amateurs, in the big games thats not going to work". :/

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

whats your point? Its not going to work against experienced players, it is going to work against inexperienced

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

The point is just that barry is coming off as though he's trying to make sure everyone listening in knows he's the better player, while Raymer is very humble.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
The point is just that barry is coming off as though he's trying to make sure everyone listening in knows he's the better player, while Raymer is very humble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a news flash. Barry Greenstein thinks he's the best player in the world. Barry Greenstein is arrogant.

Don't get me wrong, I think he's f[/i]ucking great. Just not as much as he seems to.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

i, personally, don't have a problem with Barry being arrogant [i didn't listen to the final table commentary so don't know if he was or not], it's no different from the arrogance that players like David Sklansky and Daniel Negreanu display at times. they are all world-class players who have won at every level they've played. frankly, i have more of a problem with players who have alot farther to go in their experience and play who display alot more arrogance than what you all seem to feel Barry exhibited.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
i, personally, don't have a problem with Barry being arrogant [i didn't listen to the final table commentary so don't know if he was or not], it's no different from the arrogance that players like David Sklansky and Daniel Negreanu display at times. they are all world-class players who have won at every level they've played. frankly, i have more of a problem with players who have alot farther to go in their experience and play who display alot more arrogance than what you all seem to feel Barry exhibited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ego is a big part of poker - to the point where humble players like Greg are generally applauded just for not being entirely full of themselves.

The issue was that Greg is a great tournament player, and Barry was on a crusade to remind people that he rocks the Big Game daily. As was said, Barry would say things like "That won't work in the big games" either to make Raymer look inferior to him or to make himself look superior to everyone. Yeah, OK Barry, now let's talk about the tournament that you're supposed to be discussing.

I was getting frustrated just listening, I'm not sure how Raymer handled it so well. If I were him I would've opened everything I said with "As a World Series Main Event champion..."

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Well greg how much experience to you have short handed in big tournaments?" Greg: "Not much".

[/ QUOTE ]

Raymer: "Well Barry, how many WSOP Main Events have you won?"

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Well greg how much experience to you have short handed in big tournaments?" Greg: "Not much".

[/ QUOTE ]

Raymer: "Well Barry, how many WSOP Main Events have you won?"

[/ QUOTE ]

I like Raymer and Barry but I don't think I would go there.

Barry: I haven't won the WSOP ME, but that is 1 big tournament you have gotten headsup in. I have 8 Major Tournament wins and 5 2nd place finishes so that looks to be about 13 to 1 in my favor.

RZ

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

Greg isn't exactly a slouch, tournament-wise.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

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Greg isn't exactly a slouch, tournament-wise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, 13-2,

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

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[ QUOTE ]
i, personally, don't have a problem with Barry being arrogant [i didn't listen to the final table commentary so don't know if he was or not], it's no different from the arrogance that players like David Sklansky and Daniel Negreanu display at times. they are all world-class players who have won at every level they've played. frankly, i have more of a problem with players who have alot farther to go in their experience and play who display alot more arrogance than what you all seem to feel Barry exhibited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ego is a big part of poker - to the point where humble players like Greg are generally applauded just for not being entirely full of themselves.

The issue was that Greg is a great tournament player, and Barry was on a crusade to remind people that he rocks the Big Game daily. As was said, Barry would say things like "That won't work in the big games" either to make Raymer look inferior to him or to make himself look superior to everyone. Yeah, OK Barry, now let's talk about the tournament that you're supposed to be discussing.

I was getting frustrated just listening, I'm not sure how Raymer handled it so well. If I were him I would've opened everything I said with "As a World Series Main Event champion..."

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with your statement that "ego is a big part of poker". I think the "winning attitude" has a lot to do with the success these guys have. They think they are the best and then set out to play like the best.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

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Greg isn't exactly a slouch, tournament-wise.

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keyword [major].

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

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[ QUOTE ]
i, personally, don't have a problem with Barry being arrogant [i didn't listen to the final table commentary so don't know if he was or not], it's no different from the arrogance that players like David Sklansky and Daniel Negreanu display at times. they are all world-class players who have won at every level they've played. frankly, i have more of a problem with players who have alot farther to go in their experience and play who display alot more arrogance than what you all seem to feel Barry exhibited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ego is a big part of poker - to the point where humble players like Greg are generally applauded just for not being entirely full of themselves.

The issue was that Greg is a great tournament player, and Barry was on a crusade to remind people that he rocks the Big Game daily. As was said, Barry would say things like "That won't work in the big games" either to make Raymer look inferior to him or to make himself look superior to everyone. Yeah, OK Barry, now let's talk about the tournament that you're supposed to be discussing.

I was getting frustrated just listening, I'm not sure how Raymer handled it so well. If I were him I would've opened everything I said with "As a World Series Main Event champion..."

[/ QUOTE ]

Barry: "and other than that, what else have you won? oh, and before you answer, what else major have you won?"

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

I win 3 out of 10 normally and I'm not even really that good. But then again I am only playing the $5 tournaments and winning those doesn't require looking away from the giant images on my TV screen very often.
And I do still leave the home.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

I don't care how successful you are in either tournaments or cash games--there's no need to act like an arrogant jerk.

Barry has seemingly gone from the Robin Hood of Poker lately and morphed into an arrogant jerk, all within the last couple weeks. Or maybe he has always been an arrogant jerk.

Whatever the case, I wish he would zip it up and learn a little something called humility.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

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I win 3 out of 10 normally and I'm not even really that good. But then again I am only playing the $5 tournaments and


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Over what sample size. This equates to a 50% ROI and that's without factoring 2nd and 3rds.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

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Whatever the case, I wish he would zip it up and learn a little something called humility.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why his humbleness is so important. Furthermore it makes the show more entertaining.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

guys dont hate on a legend of cash games

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

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[ QUOTE ]

Whatever the case, I wish he would zip it up and learn a little something called humility.

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I don't understand why his humbleness is so important. Furthermore it makes the show more entertaining.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care if he's humble or not - I just wish he'd stop interrupting others while they are talking. He ran over Greg on countless occasions and, contrary to what Barry may think, there were many people who were interested in hearing what Greg had to say.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Whatever the case, I wish he would zip it up and learn a little something called humility.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why his humbleness is so important. Furthermore it makes the show more entertaining.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care if he's humble or not - I just wish he'd stop interrupting others while they are talking. He ran over Greg on countless occasions and, contrary to what Barry may think, there were many people who were interested in hearing what Greg had to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was out of synch initially, not knowing when Greg was done with his thought. If you stuck with it, you will notice that I eventually asked Greg first if he wanted to answer each question as it came up, and toward the end, I was pretty silent as Greg told his stories.

I have no disrespect for Greg, and I think one WSOP final bracelet is more than the sum total of about anything else in the poker world. And he even made a valiant run at a repeat.

Sorry I occasionally interfered during the broadcast.

Barry

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

where are u gys listenin to this at

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

log in to pokerstars and you will find it there.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't care if he's humble or not - I just wish he'd stop interrupting others while they are talking. He ran over Greg on countless occasions and, contrary to what Barry may think, there were many people who were interested in hearing what Greg had to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was out of synch initially, not knowing when Greg was done with his thought. If you stuck with it, you will notice that I eventually asked Greg first if he wanted to answer each question as it came up, and toward the end, I was pretty silent as Greg told his stories.

I have no disrespect for Greg, and I think one WSOP final bracelet is more than the sum total of about anything else in the poker world. And he even made a valiant run at a repeat.

Sorry I occasionally interfered during the broadcast.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough - i should have realized that coordinating a 4-way phone conversation when you are in seperate locations can often be problematic.

at times during the broadcast, it seemed like you were dismissive of Greg but it's good to hear that you respect him as a player, just as he respects you.

despite my criticisms, i want you to know how much your participation was appreciated.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was out of synch initially, not knowing when Greg was done with his thought. If you stuck with it, you will notice that I eventually asked Greg first if he wanted to answer each question as it came up, and toward the end, I was pretty silent as Greg told his stories.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess the problem here is that some people expect you to be as good a broadcaster as you are a poker player. You might take it as a weird compliment!

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

Barry...I did not think you were arrogant (seems like I might have been the only one).
And yes, I did notice that you were constantly trying to defer to Greg.
It seemed like a VERY friendly conversation between two guys who have a lot of respect for each other's opinions and abilities.


There were interesting issues that came up and you clearly had some enthusiasm for your opinion so you were engaged in a debate with Greg a couple of times (regarding short-table play for example).


I thought the broadcast was terrific.
I didn't give a damn who won the WCOOP championship...I stayed up all night listening to you guys because the conversation was so intelligent and engaging (pretty much the same as the previous Sunday...except this time it was you WITH Greg).


To the point of Barry's supposed arrogance: Hello?? He really IS one of the best players in the world. He isn't even saying this much but we all know it to be true.

The concept of cutting one's way through a large field of mostly amateur players IS relevant. Sometimes you are playing against a good player...and other times you are playing against a bad player. That's just how it is.
Also relevant is the subject of how much the WPT and online-play has changed the game.


For Barry to pretend like he is just another amateur player would be ridiculous.
The big cash-game IS different and many people are interested in hearing what he has to say.


I look at Barry's ideas about playing in the big-game at the 'next level' to be no different than a baseball major-league manager or player talking about some young upstart trying to make it at the 'next level'.
You wouldn't think that a baseball manager or player would be arrogant if he was talking about a kid just up from the minor-leagues about 'needing time to learn the game at this level'.
Barry isn't talking down to ANYONE.
It's just fact that winning at the highest levels in poker takes a different set of abilities.


To the point of the supposed interruptions: It is indeed difficult on a 4-way phone conversation where the guys have never really worked with each other before.
Interruptions are going to happen.


In many of the 3-man broadcast booths in football for example it would not be uncommon at all for the play-by-play guy to point to the announcer who is to speak next (or for one of the announcers to hold up a finger to indicate that they have an idea they would like to interject).

I've done this in 2 person sports-broadcasts actually (pointing to the other guy when my thought is done so that he can jump right in quickly without fear of interruption).

This is not possible in the conference phone-call format obviously.


Barry and Greg engaged in some of the most interesting on-air poker-chat I have ever heard.
Sure beat most (if not everything) of what is said in most of the 'water-down for the totally clueless' TV broadcasts on ESPN, WPT and Fox.


Please don't listen to the nay-sayers Barry.
Every announcer everywhere gets loads of criticism from people who think they could do better.
I think you and Greg both did a fine job and hope to hear more and more from you guys in the future.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was out of synch initially, not knowing when Greg was done with his thought. If you stuck with it, you will notice that I eventually asked Greg first if he wanted to answer each question as it came up, and toward the end, I was pretty silent as Greg told his stories.

I have no disrespect for Greg, and I think one WSOP final bracelet is more than the sum total of about anything else in the poker world. And he even made a valiant run at a repeat.

Sorry I occasionally interfered during the broadcast.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

I do want to mention though that overall I thought the commentary was great and the only reason I stayed up also was to listen to yours and gregs words of wisdom. It didnt seem as though you were maliciously doing anything and you certainly aren't at the level of mike matusow, I thought mostly all of what you were saying was very intelligent and great insight. I guess the fact you were cutting off alot of what he was saying is why I got the impression a few times of you being condenscending but overall though you guys had great conversation. I guess in you trying to express the difference between beating the best in the world and beating amatuers this is what made it somewhat come across the way it did. But overall though you seemed very well spoken and knowledgable and im sure everyone appreciates your commentary as it made the WCOOP that much more exciting.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

Nice post MicroBob.

I don't understand the critcism of Barry. I guess when you're a successfull public figure, it comes with the territory.

All Barry ever does, is respond with class. I've always been impressed with how he handles himself, and look forward to reading his book.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

Not only do all broadcasters get criticized... but it is kind of interesting who likes whom in the broadcast industry.

News reporting - you might prefer a Peter Jennings to a Dan Rather for example...but, for the most part, they are generally saying a lot of the same things. It's just a style preference really.

Same goes for sports I think.

I still can't understand why anyone would like listening to Joe Morgan (an announcer who annoys me tremendously..I just don't think he's very good) while others can't stand listening to Tim McCarver.
I think McCarver articulates his ideas very well and comes up with some interesting insights. Others think he's just too damn cocky (not unlike the criticisms of Greenstein I guess) as well as a bit repetitive.

Different on-air personalities and styles work differently on listeners/viewers.


I was a pretty popular radio play-by-play sports-broadcaster for several years with my small market teams in Florida and Ohio.
I came to a new market and after my first game on the air there was a 140-post thread on a minor-league hockey internet board that was MOSTLY about how much I sucked and how much I was in love with myself on the air, etc etc.
I was the worst announcer they had ever heard and there was no way they were going to be able to survive a whole season of listening to me. (it was quite the blow to my ego to be sure).


After my 2nd and 3rd games a lot of these listeners/internet-posters thought that I had gotten MUCH better and CLEARLY had taken steps to improve my announcing.


Well...no, not really. After literally thousands of sports-broadcasts (mostly baseball and hockey) I had pretty much developed my style by then.
My 2500th game broadcast was not going to change THAT much from my 2499th game broadcast.
It was just that some of the listeners out there were starting to get used to my style a little bit.


(as it turned out...those who hated my on-air persona got their wish...I, and several others in the team-office, were fired at various points of the season by a REALLY psycho team-owner).

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

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Barry...I did not think you were arrogant (seems like I might have been the only one).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you weren't the only one MicroBob. I really liked to hear the opinions of Greg and Barry, both are great guys, and when they had little differences in the radiocast, well, IMHO Barry was usually (always?) right; sometimes maybe a little picky; but I think Greg handle it really well.

David

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

wow now that barry has chimed in it appears the blowjobbers have arrived...

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow now that barry has chimed in it appears the people who aren't insanely jealous of success, and want top players to keep posting on these forums have arrived...

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

I would hardly qualify as a blowjobber for Barry G.


I was one who was leading the charge in a thread in the books-pubs forum who didn't particularly care for his book.
Barry was extremely classy in responding to the criticisms that I, and a handful of others, had about AotR.


The majority of posters over in that thread RAVED about his book but I truly thought it just wasn't anything to drool over and I had some rather pointed criticisms about it.


Kind of weird actually:
Looks like I've been in the minority opinion both times (in that I didn't like the book that much but DID like his commentary on the broadcast).

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

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[ QUOTE ]
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Whatever the case, I wish he would zip it up and learn a little something called humility.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why his humbleness is so important. Furthermore it makes the show more entertaining.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care if he's humble or not - I just wish he'd stop interrupting others while they are talking. He ran over Greg on countless occasions and, contrary to what Barry may think, there were many people who were interested in hearing what Greg had to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was out of synch initially, not knowing when Greg was done with his thought. If you stuck with it, you will notice that I eventually asked Greg first if he wanted to answer each question as it came up, and toward the end, I was pretty silent as Greg told his stories.

I have no disrespect for Greg, and I think one WSOP final bracelet is more than the sum total of about anything else in the poker world. And he even made a valiant run at a repeat.

Sorry I occasionally interfered during the broadcast.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

But I think trying to mix in Big Game strategy when the discussion is about tournament strategy becomes annoying.

I know you are on a permanent crusade to recruit players into your game but I think the discussions yesterday would have benefitted from only being about tournament play.

Other than that I was listening with great interest and I think confidence sometimes get confused for arrogance (and sometimes not).

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
log in to pokerstars and you will find it there.

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Could you be more specific, please? Where do I click on?

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

Thanks for responding. I'd like to hear what Greg has to say about this--not because I don't believe you, but I am curious of what he thinks.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

I thought Barry's commentary was great. Greg provided what I expect from Greg, solid, reasoned, measured analysis. Barry provided the same type of insight that he provided in his book, a glimpse into the thought process and attitude of someone who gambles at the highest of levels. Both were very good, but while they both have a strategic understanding of the game, they clearly approach the game from different perspectives.

My favorite part of the commentary was Barry clarifying the fact that even before being a poker bigshot he never had any problems always getting beautiful, intelligent women. Go Barry!

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow now that barry has chimed in it appears the people who aren't insanely jealous of success, and want top players to keep posting on these forums have arrived...

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

First, thanks for actually posting, Barry.

I will stand by my comments that it seemed as if Barry was consistently trying to make his opinions (which were less often related to the tournament than the Big Game) override Greg's. If the case is, as he said, that he was a bit out of sync in the beginning, so be it, but I stopped listening after a decent amount of time, and never heard any significant change.

I am far from insanely jealous of Barry. He's clearly a great player, at a level that I don't realistically aspire to. And I personally thought what I heard of his commentary sucked. I think John Madden sucks as a football commentator, too, but I'm not jealous of his mad coaching skillz. Any reasonable person can see the difference.

Re: This final table commentary with Greenstein and Raymer..
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow now that barry has chimed in it appears the blowjobbers have arrived...

[/ QUOTE ]

funny how the thread changed.