How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

I don't think this question is within the scope of this forum, but it is probably the most important question I'll ever post on 2+2, so I'm putting it here. I'd really appreciate any advice, as I know a lot of you are very knowledgeable about this stuff.

I am 21 and a senior at Columbia University in NYC. I am an "Engineering and Management Systems" major, which is under INdustrial Engineering and Operations Research. I have a 3.04 GPA including some ugly grades, I have some work experience but not great. I'm interested in consulting or marketing, and I think I'd be good at it. I'm not very confident so I probably won't interview particularly well. I live in Manhattan and I plan on staying here. I have a girlfriend who I'll probably be marrying within the next 2-3 years, who supports me in anything I do, so poker won't cause a problem.

My dad is a very successful entrepreneur of a now-public company who I have endless amounts of respect for, so he obviously is not thrilled with the whole poker thing, though he does like to gamble in Vegas. So he's not opposed to it as an activity. my parents paid my tuition. I didn't get along with him until about a year or two ago, and I think my relationship with him would be very shaky if I didn't get a job, or continue my education, after college.

I don't have many options but here they are:
- I can try to get my master's in operations research or financial engineering here, which would be very good for consulting and finance, respectively. I don't know that I'd get accepted. I'd give myself about a 20% chance. it is a one year program
- I can take whatever job offers (if any) I get. I don't know what kind of job I'd get but I'd assume it would be at a smaller firm. I think I'm way underqualified for a top consulting firm, though I don't know that for sure.

which leads me to the question that is in the title of the post. If I play poker professionally and set myself back at least one year of work experience and have to explain on interviews in the future that either I gambled since I graduated or disappeared, possibly damage my relationship with my parents, look bad to my girlfriend's family, how much money would I have to make a year for it to be worth it?

I know this is a loaded question but I tried to provide as much information about myself as possible. obviously there is no way of giving me the actual number, but I'd like to see peoples' estimates. obviously I'd also like to hear reasoning for it.

also, if I do play poker, how could I cover it up or make it look like I did something for when I do need to get a job? should I travel around Europe for a while and play or move somewhere? should I get an internship or a part-time job at a company that I'd be interested in working for?

if there is any other information I can provide to help answer, please ask. any advice would be much appreciated. this is something that has been bothering me and I can't stop thinking about it.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

you should be more concerned with what you want, not what others want for you.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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you should be more concerned with what you want, not what others want for you.

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unfortunately, what I do will affect how other people treat/view/relate with me, which will affect my future happiness. if I had to choose, I'd probably play poker. but that's counterproductive for me. I have worked hard to not be as lazy as I am, and it hasn't worked at all. if I sit at home all day, I suspect it'll get even worse. so it's not about what I want. it's about what decision will leave me happier in 10 years

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

If your goal is eventually to get a job, then get a job. If it's not, then don't worry about it.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

Take the job. There are enough hours in the week that you'll still be able to play plenty of poker. You might be surpised and find that you really enjoy the job and are glad you took it. It not, you can quit after a year or whatever, but at least give it try and see how it works.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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If your goal is eventually to get a job, then get a job. If it's not, then don't worry about it.

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online poker will not be around forever. the games will get tougher, the laws might get tighter, and the bots will get better, rakeback might be taken away, the rake could keep going up, etc. as it is, Party just pared off about $70/hr of my earn with the rake hike. I don't think it's something I can rely on beyond the next 2 years, and even that might be a stretch.

I can't imagine I'll make enough that I can invest it and not have to work (though I'd probably want to work)

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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Take the job. There are enough hours in the week that you'll still be able to play plenty of poker. You might be surpised and find that you really enjoy the job and are glad you took it. It not, you can quit after a year or whatever, but at least give it try and see how it works.

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surely there is a dollar value on this, no? if I could make a million in a year there wouldn't even be a discussion would there be?

also, consultants work pretty long hours from what I've heard. I think it'll be 50-60 hours a week, closer to 60 I think. as it is I barely play. there would be a significant difference between the amount of poker I play with and without a job (probably 25 hours a week vs 5-7 hours a week)

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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you should be more concerned with what you want, not what others want for you.

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unfortunately, what I do will affect how other people treat/view/relate with me, which will affect my future happiness. if I had to choose, I'd probably play poker. but that's counterproductive for me. I have worked hard to not be as lazy as I am, and it hasn't worked at all. if I sit at home all day, I suspect it'll get even worse. so it's not about what I want. it's about what decision will leave me happier in 10 years

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you want to be happy right? then isnt it about what you want? your friends and family will die, and (relativley) soon you will be forgoten. so what does it matter? do what will make you happy. Planning for the future is important, but 10 years? just live life man.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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If your goal is eventually to get a job, then get a job. If it's not, then don't worry about it.

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this is sound advice. on a side note, there will ALWAYS be a good game.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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I am 21

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I could have sworn you were like 26-29 years old, among other things in this post that I wouldn't have believed about you unless you wrote them.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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If your goal is eventually to get a job, then get a job. If it's not, then don't worry about it.

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this is sound advice. on a side note, there will ALWAYS be a good game.

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not online there won't

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

I guess it depends on you. In my case, I find it hard to play that many hours per week and I think if I didn't have a job I would play about the same amount as I do now, except that I would spend the rest of the week sitting around the house being really bored rather than doing a job and making some money. If you think that you would be giving up a lot of income by not playing full time, then yeah, it's a different story, but I think there are a lot of people who are going to make more over the course of a year by essentially having two jobs.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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I guess it depends on you. In my case, I find it hard to play that many hours per week and I think if I didn't have a job I would play about the same amount as I do now, except that I would spend the rest of the week sitting around the house being really bored rather than doing a job and making some money. If you think that you would be giving up a lot of income by not playing full time, then yeah, it's a different story, but I think there are a lot of people who are going to make more over the course of a year by essentially having two jobs.

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there is some danger that I won't play enough hours. I had 2 weeks off work in August when I decided I'd do nothing but play poker. I wanted to log 100 hours in 17 days. I ended up playing about 30 hours. but that's why I asked the question of how much. I know how much I COULD make, but I would actually make about half that I think. if I can figure out a number then I can figure out my chances of making that.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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If your goal is eventually to get a job, then get a job. If it's not, then don't worry about it.

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this is sound advice. on a side note, there will ALWAYS be a good game.

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not online there won't

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says who? i didnt say there will always be an insanely soft game... correct me if im wrong but, wouldnt you say youre a great player?

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

Do you enjoy playing poker? If you went pro would you be able to play 30ish hours a week? If not, go to school or get a job and play on the side.

I read in another post that you make $300 an hour playing poker (if I am incorrect I am sorry) I think it is too hard to pass that type of money up.

Ok, here is a anecdote that might help you a bit. A friend of my quit did not play football his senior year of high school. He wanted to join a fire fighting program to help him get on the fast track. It was helpful and he is further ahead than he would have been if he played football his senior year, but not by that much. Looking back he realized he missed out on an opprotunity do something really fun. What I am saying is pretty much, you will have 40+ years to be in the straight world and do all that. You're a talented poker player who has a chance to do something really fun and exciting with his life while he is still young.

I don't know if that is helpful, maybe something to think about at least.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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If your goal is eventually to get a job, then get a job. If it's not, then don't worry about it.

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this is sound advice. on a side note, there will ALWAYS be a good game.

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not online there won't

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says who? i didnt say there will always be an insanely soft game... correct me if im wrong but, wouldnt you say youre a great player?

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well what happens when a good bot becomes available? I can't imagine it'll be worth playing when it gets to that point.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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I wanted to log 100 hours in 17 days. I ended up playing about 30 hours.

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And playing heavily for 17 days is much easier than playing heavily for two years. This is why I would go with the job. If you are a machine who is going to be able to play 50 hours a week for years, then you have a decision to make. But if you are just going to end up playing twenty hours a week, you might as well take the job because you can play around that much on the side anyway and the job is a freeroll.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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If your goal is eventually to get a job, then get a job. If it's not, then don't worry about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is sound advice. on a side note, there will ALWAYS be a good game.

[/ QUOTE ]


not online there won't

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says who? i didnt say there will always be an insanely soft game... correct me if im wrong but, wouldnt you say youre a great player?

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well what happens when a good bot becomes available? I can't imagine it'll be worth playing when it gets to that point.

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youre not part of the illuminati? youre screwed.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

Online poker is just the current hip method for people who don't want traditional jobs to make their living. If it goes away, it will be replaced by another. And there are always unhip methods.

It's not as if everyone was a wage-slave, and then poker came along and changed the world.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

about the bots.....

bots are not a real threat to online poker. Youre an intelligent guy, think about how dumb and unresourceful people are...(id wager that 3/4 of 2+2 users dont make money at poker, nor could attain said bots). also think about how poker sites will do everything they can to protect their insane incomes.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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Online poker is just the current hip method for people who don't want traditional jobs to make their living.



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i would say that ~.0001% of people who dont want traditional jobs could make a living at online poker.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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about the bots.....

bots are not a real threat to online poker. Youre an intelligent guy, think about how dumb and unresourceful people are...(id wager that 3/4 of 2+2 users dont make money at poker, nor could attain said bots). also think about how poker sites will do everything they can to protect their insane incomes.

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prepare for the worst and hope for the best

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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prepare for the worst and hope for the best

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good advice, but im not worried at all.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

Hey Josh,

I guess I'm in a somewhat similar situation so I'll just say what I'm doing and maybe it will be helpful. I'm 22 and graduated in May with a computer engineering degree. I didn't know what I wanted to do, I don't particularly love computer engineering, I'm reasonably good at it, but I'm reasonably good at most things, and very few make me really happy.

I decided to apply to grad schools because getting an advanced degree could help down the road and it leaves me time to decide what I want to do and all those big tough questions - basically not closing any doors I think. I start this week and will be playing poker to make money while taking a couple classes.

I think the things you are worried about with regards to your GFs family and your dad are just not something you should worry about. You can't control them and its not going to make you happier if they respect your job more or less, you're the one who actually has to do the job whatever it may be. You mentioned not being very confident in interviews and worrying about your family's opinions for this stuff is an issue of confidence I think.

Putting a dollar figure on the choices is a depressing way to consider such important decisions. What exactly is $100k vs $200k going to do to your life? What about $50k? I had enough money to eat and sleep comfortably this week and I can look far enough ahead to see that will continue. I'm happy with what I do between the time I wake up and go to sleep. That seems like enough to me.

Good luck, I sympathize. Do what you love or take a shot at something if you don't know what you love yet (I'm in this group).

-DeathDonkey

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

$200K. Just because that seems like a big enough number for me.

edit: post taxes

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

Since no one else has said it, I'll throw out a number. I think if you made around $120K after taxes it would be more than worth it. I think that's definitely attainable at the games and limits you play. Also, you can totally tell a company you traveled around Europe or moved to South America for a year after school was done. You could possibly say you went and taught English. I don't think it's looked down upon by potential employers that you took a year off to travel and enjoy yourself before starting a career.

Getting an internship is not a bad idea either, and is how I made some key contacts and got some good experience when I started in my field. The only problem with an internship is it would take away from time you could be playing.

I'm not familiar with how much gambling winnings are taxed, so my number may be off.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...09/all6max.jpg

Poker. 'nuff said.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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Online poker is just the current hip method for people who don't want traditional jobs to make their living. If it goes away, it will be replaced by another. And there are always unhip methods.

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My current goal is to be a freelance photographer who plays poker and plays a harmonica in a rock band in his spare time. I'm not sure how realistic this is.

To the OP, I'd suggest you get a job. If you don't like it, then consider the "pro" route.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

Watching Goodfellas for the 30th time it occured to me true this is, online poker is for the people who want to make the money mobsters do, but are too puny for that line of work. (EXCEPT FOR ME OF COURSE!)

But, we really shouldn't underestimate the huge loss a year can be in the job market, especially if the economy won't fully recovery for the next few years. If you take that year off, you are now competing against the next graduating class too, who just graduated, and don't have what might be perceived as a gambling problem.

But, at the same time, you can make enough to make it worthwhile. I don't think I am qualified to give you a number, BUT, looking at your posts, I'd say use the number you have in mind as the high end of the range you should make, since you seem a bit overly cautious and slightly paranoid about the future, so a figure you'd come up with would probably be quite on the high end.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

I am a math guy. I need numbers for everything. I don't think asking for a number is a bad way of going about it. there is clearly an amount of money that will be so far above what I'd make a job that I should play poker.

if we put it into a poker situation, getting a job has implied odds. in 5 or 10 years I'll be ahead of myself now, not only because I have more work experience, but also because I can get a better job now than I'll be able to get in a couple of years. playing poker has reverse implied odds. there will be a point (IMO) where I'll have to go find a job and I'll be way behind the curve. also, think of time value of money. if I make a lot of money in the next 2 years and invest that, that can counteract some of the advantages of doing well at a job.

I don't want to come off as greedy. the money is not my big motivation. I want to be successful in whatever I do. but in this situation, I think money is pretty important since I'm choosing between 2 jobs

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

I feel like a lot of people are hesitant to throw out a number. what if I threw one out? 300k-500k pre-taxes. not saying I'll fall within this. it would probably be my goal though and depending on how many hours I play I think the low end is attainable. if I could make that for each of the next 2 years, is it worth it?

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

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My current goal is to be a freelance photographer who plays poker and plays a harmonica in a rock band in his spare time. I'm not sure how realistic this is.


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This made me laugh into my low-E Special 20.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

stheif09: "I am a math guy. I need numbers for everything. "

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...09/all6max.jpg



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Poker. 'nuff said.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

Don't just say you travelled for a year, TRAVEL FOR A YEAR!

Just make sure you have a WiFi connection everywhere you go. (I offer free WiFi in my bar in Amsterdam for instance) and travel the world. See stuff, do stuff, earn money on the go. This is a fantastic opportunity!

You'll get to know yourself a lot better, will learn a lot of new things, will go through a couple of shifts of paradigm and will be more interesting for companies when you return.

If you make the money online you say you make you can go anywhere you want and stay as long as you want. Take your girlfriend, it'll be something that will bind you forever (or you find out you can't stand each other anymore but that will save you a lot of grief and $$ if you find that out now instead of over 10 years [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

I can guarantee you that you'll come back as a person who's better equipped to take on the rest of his live. I think you call it sowing your oats? In the Netherlands we call it getting rid of your wild hair [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I own a bar in Amsterdam but if I'd be able to make your kind of money with online poker I'd rent it out, buy a big motorhome and take my girlfriend, baby daugther, bloody big dog and drive through the cheaper (and strangely enough sunnier)parts of Europe and save money while having a fantastic time.

You can buy a nice bungalow in southern France for 50.000$ (will be small though) You can use that as home base and sell it once you go back.

If you can set up in Thailand you can live for 20$ a day and live well! Imagine how much money you'd be able to save in a year!! You could get fired a couple of times or get fed up and change jobs without getting into financial problems straight away.

I'm certainly not saying go pro for the rest of your life, you can't decide things like that when you're 21. But if that's what you want for the coming year, you're in a fantastic position to combine a couple of things that are really great to do when you're 21.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

thank you for a really great post. travelling is something I have considered doing. I didn't study abroad and it's something I regret. I actually asked her about it in passing and she said she'd be really interested in it, even if it was for a while.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

$300k is definitely enough... I would go pro in your shoes if it meant I'd make ~$125k.

How many hours do you need to play per week to make $300k?

Will you play enough hours? Will you be depressed if you fail to meet your expectations?

I'm a "pro" and I have trouble putting in consistent hours. Don't underestimate how hard it is to motivate yourself, especially when you've had self-motivation problems in the past.

If I were in your situation I would not care about my father's approval or my girlfriend's parents' approval. You can't let other people rule your life. If you continue to be successful, they will eventually accept your decision.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

In your spot, I'd give poker serious consideration for 200k or higher.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

I'd say 500k, if you just need a number. 500k could possibly make up for the 1 year you will lose, and also give you money to invest. But then again you don't even know if you will like your job(I assume) so maybe a little cushion is needed if you need to find another.

I don't think it's possible to put a number on happiness. By the same token, I'm not a "numbers" guy myself.

Honestly, if I had decent living quarters, a girlfriend/wife that was ok with whatever I did, food, a car, and enough money to visit relatives and travel, I'd be happy. It could just be 50k a year, or even 30k, I'd be happy. But it seems for you, money is a much larger issue, and so are the thoughts of others. I also care very little what other people think of me outside my very very core group of 3-4 people.

If your main goal is to impress you parents and in laws and other people, then I think grad school is the best route as that is something that is very impressive and you will also get paid more with one once you complete it.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

I'm surprised you picked a number so low because I have seen you write things in the past that made me think that you really value work experience. so I'm wondering why. because I can invest that and make a bundle? because you don't think I'll be able to get a good enough job for it to be worht getting that work experience? you are one of the people I really hoped would respond, so I'm curious what your thought process is on this. thanks.

Re: How Much Would I Have To Make?
 

hey sthief.

i think your relationship with your father is comparable to that of my relationship with my father.

background: my parents are first generation japanese - father is a japanese man living in the u.s. and my mother has become americanized since she doesnt hang out with japanese business men everyday.

the relationship between father and children has a very distinct gap. there really isnt much emotion shown, ever. but when i graduated from college my dad was constantly asking me what i was going to do with my life and this and that and i felt like i was always under pressure to fill his shoes because hes a person that did well for himself coming from a shitty poor family that was still feeling the effects of the second world war.

i dont know why im rambling but the point of all this is that my father ended up telling me that he just wants to see me happy and become successful in whatever i want to do as long as he thinks it will be something where i can have a family of my own and have a good future. obviously telling him about poker wasnt exactly something that he thought i would have a good future in so now hes always just trying to help me get a job in whatever i tell him im interested in.

hopefully when you sit down and talk with your father again face to face that you two will share some feelings and can come to a happy compromise. what i learned from all this was that my father only wants the best for me. im sure your father only wants the best for you.

goodluck at columbia and with whatever happens but hopefully poker and 2+2 will always be a part of the future you choose.

thanks for all the help,
eugene