10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

party 2k, dont remember if PL or NL, doesnt really matter in this hand.

villian is a 2+2er, that im sure, but i havent figured out which one yet.

his game is TAG, blah blah, but LAG when SH'd. mixes things up sometimes, but isnt crazy. I just sat, so no other reads.

i wont give stats, bc i mined a good amount of short games with him, and that would skew the #'s as well as your perception.


so 8-9 handed, bad player limps, a fold or two, and villian makes it 80.

i call in hijack w QQ, dont remember the suits.

flop:10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

villian bets the 220, i call, utg folds.

turn: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

villian checks, i bet $400, he CR's all in for 1300 more.

call? fold? is it close?

thanks,

fsuplayer

edit: villian views me as fairly aggressive, but neither of us try to take too many unwarrented shots at eachother.

2nd edit: just found the HH, forgot there was a limper utg, who is a not good, and i think villian knows that.

sry, everything should be right now.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

Is this a deviation of normal play to reraise pre-flop with with QQ? Or is this standard? I wouldn't mind taking it down preflop.

If I opted to cold-call pre-flop, I call the flop bet, check behind the turn and call the river or bet the river blank. I like this line of play especially against opponents who will take liberal shots on the river as well as opponents who are apt to pay off a bet with a lesser pair on the river, but not on the turn.

As you played it, I would fold the turn check-raise, and it isn't even close. You said it: it wasn't a crazy table.

Garland

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

preflop i reraise w QQ about as much as I call with it.

just to mix things up a bit.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

Call. He has AK, maybe AQ, or a pocket pair lower than yours. I think rarely he has a boat.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call. He has AK, maybe AQ, or a pocket pair lower than yours. I think rarely he has a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]


"well considering its me playing 100-200 and you and popin playing breakeven 4c-8c stud i will use my line in the future"

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

I can't see you beating much here, maybe AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]?

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

according to your reads, it doesn't look like you guys were playing at each other much...so I would probably lay it down.

I think JJ is best you can hope for here with Tx,AA/KK being his likely range.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

are you serious?

btw i love how villain played this

think of how great a play this is if he DOES do it with big draws, you can call a bet on the turn, but you need a set or maybe AA to call this check raise AND if you check behind he gets the river for free

brilliant as long as its not just a set 100% of the time

btw what about ATs

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

Seems like an overbet Mikey... if he AA or KK then so be it... I call.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

An obvious question on your stats on Villan, don't you adjust the gametime window for # of people at the table?

Obviously any players stats if they aren't for within 1-2 of the # of people sitting at the table will be very misleading.

This is one of those hands where I find PT stats very, very useful because the looseness, pfr % and agression #'s for a player are the best things you have to go on here. It's such a silly overbet but it could just as easily be AA or KK who doesn't want to face a tough decision as a 10 of some sort; it's a very tough call requiring some sort of read on your opponent but there a few 10/20 regulars who I call this instantly, specifically 1 8 tabling nut peddler who plays AK exactly this way on a paired board.

overbet?
 

for those saying this is an overbet.. wtf are you talking about?

pot is around 270 on the flop, 710 for the turn, and once fsu bets 400 he's c/r 1300 more into a pot of now 1510. which is not an overbet.

Re: overbet?
 

thankyou good grief

this is why its such a great play if he knows our possible hand range

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

The more I think the more I think call. It's obviously possible for the villain to have lots of hands here. But I think his hand range will be heavily weighted towards a big draw with a smaller chance he has a ten and an even smaller almost tiny chance he has AA or KK.

When I do turn checkraises like this the reasoning is that I am shutting out my opponent. Say I have AKss and I bet the turn and he raises, that spot is very tough because I have ace high with 1 card to come with godloads of outs but without immediate odds and folding equity. A CR all in allows you to get your opponent to fold out hands like 88 or whatever and if you get called you still are probably in decent shape.

A CR all in here with AA or KK is a very, very thin value raise IMO. Many opponents will drop JJ or QQ here and I really think if I had AA or KK the best line would probably be to bet the turn and then figure out [censored] with checking and then figuring things out a close second.

The play makes a lot of sense for a hand like a ten because the draw out there may lead a thinking player (or donkey) to (perhaps conveniently) put the check raiser on a draw/bluff and with hands that beat ace high. But I guess this is kinda circuitous logic with what I said before about an opponent playing AA or KK like this.

I guess the final decision should come down to your gut. But the most important thing about this hand IMO is that if you are calling with QQ, you might as well be calling with 77 or A5.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

To him it probbaly seems like you have a pocket pair. Now is he trying to push you off it with air, or trying to get value for his AA/KK hoping you won't believe him?

Tough.

AK of spades makes alot of sense given the betting....I call.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the final decision should come down to your gut. But the most important thing about this hand IMO is that if you are calling with QQ, you might as well be calling with 77 or A5.


[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, a real range of worse then qq but > 77 are present. pfr could easily be doing this with jj or 99 thinking he's best, will entice worse hands to bet / or draws and pop it in.

*i think enough to sway a call on one hand (maybe w/ QQ) to a fold w77.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

You may have a point but your logic seems shaky to me.

[ QUOTE ]
pfr could easily be doing this with jj or 99 thinking he's best, will entice worse hands to bet / or draws and pop it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok worse hands bet, but why raise? Will the worst hand call? I think you've given an argument for checking the turn with JJ but not for check-raising the turn.

I really dont think tooo many people do this with JJ or 99 and if they are they might be bluffing?

-Jason

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
You may have a point but your logic seems shaky to me.

[ QUOTE ]
pfr could easily be doing this with jj or 99 thinking he's best, will entice worse hands to bet / or draws and pop it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok worse hands bet, but why raise?

[/ QUOTE ]they would sooner put it in on the turn because there are many cards which could fall to a bluffing or semibluffing hand to make their hand 2nd best

-it's a spot where they have a vulnerable hand, if they believe they have the best hand it's better to stick it in now, UNLESS (only glaring exception I can think of) you're against someone who will bluff no matter what on the river, so it's just a matter of check-calling again.



[ QUOTE ]

Will the worst hand call?

[/ QUOTE ]

if i have JJ, and oyu have one of the latter hands in the QQ->A5 range, it serves as a two way bet. I can either make worse hands call (sometimes) or better hands fold (sometimes) it's rare hero would get screwed both ways, no?

also, you price out any possible semibluff or bluff, (this is a great board for a CTB...) which isn't a bad way to end the hand.

[ QUOTE ]

I think you've given an argument for checking the turn with JJ but not for check-raising the turn.

I really dont think tooo many people do this with JJ or 99 and if they are they might be bluffing?

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Other problem with check-calling w/ 99 for example is for river play you let better hands bet for value (trips, etc.) the gray area hands (smaller underpairs or 2nd pair type hands) check behind, and occaisonally you face a bluff. so it's a reverse equity decision on the turn...

I dont know, I would never check-call here with 99, maybe it's a leak of my own.

*also, I doubt villain puts hero on QQ here, fsu (I think) stated he reraises QQ+ most of the time, he is mixing it up here. so JJ probably thinks he's either ahead to a bluff / draw / underpair type hand OR facing trips.

if you c/r all in here w. AKs to generate folding equity amongst smaller pairs technically (if they call) isn't it a neat concept to do the same with 99+...

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

What's his perception of you? Is he going to try and push you around?

I dont think he would. He'd probably only do this with JJ and anything else he's got you.

I fold.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

this hand just screams AKs at me. could just be my donkness at 9 handed ring games, but i put him squarely on that and call. sure ill humor other options, and i dont think by folding you are being a gigantic pussy, but i get my chips in on this turn push. holla

*RESULTS*
 

I got tricky again on everyone.

I was the villian in this hand and I had K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I would also make this play with AA/KK sometimes, but its too bad i didnt have it that time.

I failed to hit a K or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and villian who is a pretty well known stars/party player took it down w QQ.

i also wanted to see how others would view that play, and what range of hands they put me on when i make it.

thanks for the responses on this one.


fsuplayer