What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

Other than the continuation bet, I am at a loss to what other types of "moves" are used in NL. This topic may not be appropriate to small stakes, so tricks from all limits are welcome. I really want to improve my NL skill set and I thought this was the best way to begin.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

At least at the lower limits, the only "trick in your bag" you need is the ability to play tight and fold lots of hands. Moves become much more important at the mid- and high-stakes.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

my best trick is to put an opponent on hand range according to their actions on previous hands and on previous streets on the current hand.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

You can burn money like me if you pick up the c/r a-i semi-bluff. Yay!

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

At the lower levels I think its usually incorrect to be thinking too hard about a moves arsenal. Main focus should be on hand reading, once you get much better at that the moves will come naturally for the most part.

As a quick list I'd say the bluff (really?), bluff checkraise, semi-bluff, semi-bluff checkraise, stop n go, and blocking bets. Not complete, and I'm not commenting on how effective any of these are however, just listing them.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

They are all ineffective. I was trying to estimate the amount of money that bluffing and semi-bluffing has cost me over the past 3 months today. The number I came to was 3K. I [censored] you not. And I think that estimate is quite conservative actually. 4K might be a better guess.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

Haha sounds about right. Funny how a long long time ago I sat down at these tables thinking "some players you just cant bluff, value bet your ass off, that's all you need to do.".

In my book keeping for many many sessions I have "HOW MANY TIMES DOES IT TAKE FOR YOU TO LEARN YOU CANT BLUFF IDIOTS OFF HANDS?" in red pen.

I'm not a quick learner.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

I'm not familiar with the stop n go or blocking bets. If someone could explain, that would be great.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

agreed.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

I don't really like to give away my tricks .... but ok.

-betting
-raising
-fastplaying

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

I actually find that continuation bets are extremely valuable in 6-max games at $25 or under. I agree that bluffing someone off of top pair or middle pair is impossible in small stakes-- just value bet. The semi-bluff, post-oak bluffs, etc, are pretty worthless.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

I'd say continuation betting has a place in NL25 and NL50. From my experiences at this level I'd say that the main mistake made by players is being two conservative post flop most of the time then going nuts when they have TP or better. From my experiences of NL100 (just moved up) the balence seems to have tipped and the main mistake player make is being far too aggressive. Continuation betting seems pointless when people are check raising all in with 2nd pair.

Playing tight and chasing the right draws appear to be the best moves in SSNL. I've also had to write STOP BLUFFING YOU MORON of a piece of paper to stop myself making 'clever' moves against people who will just call.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

I understand that most if not all moves aren't going to work in SSNL, but I am wondering what types of moves people are using at the higher levels where play becomes less robotic and more creative. I am greatly interested in the game, as are most people who inhabit these forums, and I just want to get a better understanding of the game, even though I will not be able to use these moves at my current level.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

there's a little comment I'd like to make on continuation betting, about what I saw in other threads about this. People there said that they usually bet from half pot to potsize when making continuation bets, and they mentioned that you should make sure that you are betting an amount with which you are winning more than 50% of the continuation bets to make them worthwhile.

However, not everyone realizes that the pots you lose when continuation goes wrong are much bigger than those you take down. Say the pot is $20, and you bet half pot for continuation with your AK that missed or what not. That's a $10 bet. If you successfully push out your opponent, you take down a $20 pot. If you get called or raised, most likely you're beat and you're losing a $40 pot.

So to make continuation worthwhile, you must win over 66% of the time if you bet 1/2 pot, over 75% of the time if you bet pot and so on. So are they really worth the risk?

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

Look for the greatest hits archive post in MHSNL and look for a lot of older posts by Matt Flynn, turnipmonster, ML4L, cero z, el d and ray zee among others.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

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So are they really worth the risk?

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You're kidding me, right? I make as much money with continuation bets as anything. They don't get called at least 75 percent of the time.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

Applying a way ahead or way behind line is another trick that players should learn.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

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Applying a way ahead or way behind line is another trick that players should learn.

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i forgot one: dont fastplay one pair

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

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I'm not familiar with the stop n go or blocking bets.

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Blocking bet-if you have a hand with good showdown value but the community is scary(for instance a 3rd flush card coming) you bet ~1/2 pot and fold to a raise.

Stop and go-feign weakness by check/calling the flop and/or turn then bet out the turn/river after you c/c. This move is actually used by alot of bad/readable players in SSNL and indicates the nuts(or close to) most of the time. Way overused at the low limits IMO.

yvesaints advice is perfect.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Applying a way ahead or way behind line is another trick that players should learn.

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i forgot one: dont fastplay one pair

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If someone could explain this one, another player has a possibility of learning these concepts

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

Ram n jam!

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

Watching your opponents and USING this information.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

Every now and then, when a board comes rainbow and paired (e.g. 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) I like to check and call small bets on the flop and turn, then bet 3/4 the pot on the river. 90% of the time your opponent believes you slow played your trips and will fold his hand. Of course, you have to be careful not to do this very often and only do it when you have a lot of chips and a good read on your opponent. Obviously, if the board double pairs, be very careful.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

my patented turn check.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

waiting for good hands then fastplaying them.
always does the job.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

My 14% VPIP.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

fast playing = 1/2 to pot sized bet?

With the exception of the way ahead or way beind line, I seem to be using these concepts in my play or at least understood their potential. I just didn't know the terminology.

The only ones that are working for me at these limits are the block and continuation bets.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

fast play just means betting hard.

the move most of these guys are talking about is basically not slowplaying.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

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my patented turn check.

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I wish this patent would expire soon. I hate having to donkbet the turn to avoid paying you royalties.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, not everyone realizes that the pots you lose when continuation goes wrong are much bigger than those you take down. Say the pot is $20, and you bet half pot for continuation with your AK that missed or what not. That's a $10 bet. If you successfully push out your opponent, you take down a $20 pot. If you get called or raised, most likely you're beat and you're losing a $40 pot.
So to make continuation worthwhile, you must win over 66% of the time if you bet 1/2 pot, over 75% of the time if you bet pot and so on. So are they really worth the risk?

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This is just wrong. Half pot CB needs to fold opponent 1 in 3 (33%). I get called twice and lose two continuation bets (-$20), fold him once (+$20).

Actually less. Sometime I spike an out, or check it down and win anyway. Lets say 30% [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

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I don't really like to give away my tricks .... but ok.

-betting
-raising
-fastplaying

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This is exactly right. I'm always amazed how many people insist on slowplaying big hands and then end up winning a small pot. Why? Just b/c they want to have "trapped" someone with a river c/r with the nuts. Just last night I saw a guy flop a boat from the BB. He checked the flop and it checked around, turn was checked around, and he checked the river from the BB and it was checked around. Incredible. Always get more money into the pot when you have a monster. If they don't have anythhing, they don't have anything, but build the pot when you have a big hand. Also, at these levels everyone slowplays so if you play a hand fast it actually disguises your strength b/c they'll never figure you for a huge hand. Because they'll be thinking, "He can't have a big hand, he would have slowplayed."

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

Try not continuation betting and any one with half a brain can figure out when you have a hand. Oh he bet he must have top pair or better. The contuation bet is used as much to disguise your made hands as it is to be profitable.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

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Applying a way ahead or way behind line is another trick that players should learn.

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i forgot one: dont fastplay one pair

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone could explain this one, another player has a possibility of learning these concepts

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You want to play for big pots when you have a huge hand (a set or better), and you generally want to keep one pair pots small. The reason? Because you only have one pair and the hand is thus very vulnerable. For example, if you have aces, you want to raise preflop to get it heads up. Say you get one caller and the board is Q-7-2r. You have position, so you bet the flop and he calls. The turn comes 10. He checks the turn, you might want to (and I would) check behind on the turn. this is in order to keep the pot smaller. Right now, you're probably WA/WB (way ahead or way behind). He's either got something like K-Q or most likely flopped a set on you. With just a pair of aces, I want to keep the pot fairly small and see a fairly cheap showdown, so I check behind on the turn with the intention of calling a pot size bet on the river from him (since I've showed weakness you'll often induce a bluff or a "value bet" from K-Q). Say Villain flopped a set and decides to just call the turn and then bet on the river, you end up putting a lot more money into this pot than you do if you check behind on the turn. And again, you just have aces.

So in sum, build big pots with real strong hands and try to play for small pots with vulnerable hands, like one pair.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

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I'm always amazed how many people insist on slowplaying big hands and then end up winning a small pot.

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While I agree that you should normally play straightforward "fast playing" poker most of the time in small stakes games, I think there are times when it's still better to slow play.

For example, suppose you flop a monster hand (like quads). Because the board fits your hand so well, it's less likely to fit your opponents as well. Therefore, any reasonable 'fast' bet on the flop will likely result in everyone folding. In this case, checking might be preferable since a turn card might fit someone else's hand and you can get more action.

I actually had this happen to me once where I was holding pocket 4s and flopped quads. The flop was checked all the way around. The turn was a queen (and two of my opponents had AQ...) We wound up in a three-way all in where they were drawing dead. This might be the exception rather than the rule, but there is a chance they could have folded to any bet I on the flop.

Personally, if I check the flop on a slow play, I rarely check the turn as well. The standard caveats of slow playing apply; also, if your opponents are complete calling stations (which happens often at small stakes), you might as well keep betting to build the pot. But, I would hesitate to say that slowplaying should be dismissed -- instead, it might be better to say that it can be applied, but perhaps much more selectively than you would apply it in a more sophisticated game. .

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

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my best trick is to put an opponent on hand range according to their actions on previous hands and on previous streets on the current hand.

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I think hand reading can be sometimes be more challenging at lower stakes since players will often play unconventionally -- e.g., not raising hands that normally are raised (or even raising hands that one would normally not raise), and calling bets with weak (or sometimes even non-existent) draws.

I find that when I apply hand reading techniques, it's not hard to over-estimate the strength of your opponents hands.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

I'll probably get flamed for this, but my main move is to appear weak. I think people give away too much info in a effort to protect their hand on the flop. So, if I have a set or two pair or whatever on the flop, I'll check to the turn. More often than not the turn card won't do anything for your opponents. Yeah, once in a while someone will get their flush or straight, but it's rare. So, from my experience, I get more ev from flying under the radar on the flop (and sometimes the turn). Opponents bet when they think I'm weak and usually fold when they think I'm strong.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

I bet the flop, turn and river.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

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I bet the flop, turn and river.

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You give away info though. Flop bet has its pros and cons.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

Posting UTG.

Re: What is in your NL bag of tricks?
 

I did this a couple of times and had good results. I'm on a nut flush draw and I bet the the turn. So, opponent naturally thinks I am not on a draw, and when the flush completes on river he's now more relaxed and bets more, even with 3 suits on the board.