What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

Hello all,

I have decided to register here to get some advice. I am an average sort of player, I can win some small tables and can often in the big online tournaments make the prizes - i.e. finishing in the top 80 of 1000 people tournaments. However I cannot seem to do any better than this. I have a good knowledge of the game and have read books and know what I am doing but I just cannot seem to get any better.

It seems like its no fluke therefore when poker players enter 1000 people tournaments who come in the top 5. It does seem to require great skill to do that well.

My question is - for all you players who are really good and can expect to finish in the top prizes - did you ever find yourself where I currently am - i.e. seemingly the best I can do is come about 50th? Or have you just got the natural talent?

And for any top players - what is the key to your success? I mean I know my stuff - I play the hands as the books suggest you should do - but I see so many players playing hands that clearly a book says you shouldn't play. Is the key to your style of play - i.e. a tricky opponent, aggressive style, etc. Any advice would be greatly received, I love the game but I want to become so much better and I am not sure what I ought to do.

If I was to sum up how I play - I play tight, I never bluff, although I often semi bluff if the odds seem favourable. I get scared off by aggressive play - i.e. if I have a K 6 and the flop was K J 4 - I would be looking to raise a small amount depending on position, but if someone raised big I would probably fold.

Please help!!!

Thanks.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

Sorry - I forgot to mention I play no limit hold em - tournaments - where the stake to enter is $10 or less.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but I see so many players playing hands that clearly a book says you shouldn't play. Is the key to your style of play -

[/ QUOTE ]
if you are referring to tournies with 1000 players or so... yes you will need to be raising with marginal hands in position when blinds get high.. to put pressure on the blinds and pick up pots after the flop.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

I think its fantastic how good you quality players are. When I first started playing poker it seemed such a simple game where you need a lot of luck. But infact its incredibly skillful.

Thanks for the advice on raising with marginal hands, I do have a tendancy to fold these hands because I don't want to lose chips and end up quickly eliminated from the tournament if I lose.

I rarely try and steal blinds, I am not very good at doing this unless its heads up.

Do you need a certain style of play to be really good? I mean do you have to be aggressive in order to be a good player. And if I say aggressive what sort of aggressive?

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

selectively aggressive [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

Never bluffing is a mistake. The fact of the matter is to win these tournaments you do need to get lucky. You cannot expect to get your chips in with the best of it every single time. It's better to get 4,000 chips in at a 55/45 underdog than blind down to 3,000 and get them in as a 55/45 favourite. The people who win these tournaments are often the sort to go out early when they don't do well, trying to build up a big stack.

You need to identify players who are playing like you are at the moment and steal chips off them [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Obviously the more chips you have the more pressure you can put people under, which is why some of the best players are willing to take risks early to get to that position, even if it often results in an early exit.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

I'm on a similar quest. I think the answer is to occasionally make plays that right now you wouldnt dream of making, and would feel highly uncomfortable making, and have no faith in. What those plays are (and different for each player) is harder to discover.

When I played chess I was sometimes asked by weak players what they could do to improve. There are broadly two approaches to opening the game with White so I asked them which they used, and then recommended them switching to the other one. This was merely a test of their willingness to abandon pre-conceived ideas. Incredibly over 90% immediately disagreed with the suggestion and came up with a set of contrived reasons why they couldn't switch. Those players never improved. I don't want to become the poker equivalent.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

"And for any top players - what is the key to your success?"

Cajones.

You'll never win NL tournaments by playing tight, not bluffing, and not stealing blinds.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have decided to register here to get some advice

[/ QUOTE ]
this is a good start. the more you read here the better you will understand the nuances of the game as well as strategy and you will only become a better player.
[ QUOTE ]
I am an average sort of player, I can win some small tables and can often in the big online tournaments make the prizes - i.e. finishing in the top 80 of 1000 people tournaments. However I cannot seem to do any better than this. I have a good knowledge of the game and have read books and know what I am doing but I just cannot seem to get any better.


[/ QUOTE ]
this is actually better than most. note that books aren't everything, you need to be able to apply what is read (i am not saying you don't by any means).
[ QUOTE ]
My question is - for all you players who are really good and can expect to finish in the top prizes - did you ever find yourself where I currently am - i.e. seemingly the best I can do is come about 50th? Or have you just got the natural talent?


[/ QUOTE ]
this conincides with your last paragraph. you sound passive and one thing the top tourny players are is aggressive and apply pressure very well.

read the MTT forums, you will find your answers there.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

I do not consider myself a top player, however my advice is not debatable. There is no substitute for practice. That's what is so great about the internet. You can see a gazzillion hands. Also, although I read only one book and it was rather worthless, studying will help you a great deal.

So there you have it. The secret to success. Practice and study. Sucks, huh? GL.

-JOTR

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

the only way to be the best is to play as much as possible, it's all experience/how much time you put into it.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

at least seven 9's in your username

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

I also don't consider myself a "top player" -- I've only made it to the final table of a large MTT once, out of probably 20ish attempts. However, I regularly cash/win in three-table sit-n-gos, and my performance in ring games is in pretty good shape.

From what little you say in your post, I think you're concentrating too much on your cards, the odds, the math. You talk about playing only premium hands and making the mathmatically "correct" decisions in each hand. That's a great way to stop being a miserable fish and become a competent novice, but now it's time for you to take the next step.

The cold facts about your hand, the cards on the board, and your odds to finish with the best hand are really only a fraction of the information available to you at the table. You need to start reading other players' styles of play, figuring out what they hold and when you can get them off their hand -- whether or not you yourself hold anything of value.

You said you "never bluff." This is an enormous mistake. You're thinking "I can't lose what I don't put in the middle when I'm not sure I have the best hand," and there's something to be said for that attitude most of the time. But if you truly never bluff, a whole lot of your opponents are going to pick up on that, and if they have any brains at all they're going to stop paying you off when you value-bet. Ironically, you've decided not to lose your money by bluffing, but this means you're not winning as much with your bets when you do actually have the best hand.

You need to bluff sometimes when you sense weakness, and you need to advertise the occasional bluff (or get caught) in order to plant the seeds of doubt in your opponents' minds about all of your bets, which means when you bet for value you'll get paid off more often. Also, as another poster said, to stay alive in tournaments you must steal the blinds and take a few pots when you know you didn't make the best hand, otherwise you'll get blinded down to where you don't have enough chips to take a stand.

Again, I don't mean to sound condescending -- I'm no Phil Ivey -- but it sounds like you're a straightforward ABC player. To get to the next level you're going to have to develop your reads and mix up your game.


Crooked

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

Crooked Paul - Fantastic reply, I love that reply, I couldn't agree more and you raise some really good aspects of poker play.

I absolutely know and am aware of flaws to my poker game, I know there is so much still to learn and become a better player. I have done well out of poker overall - my first ever real tournament in person with people was at a casino with 77 people and I came second and won $1300 and the cost to enter was $30. People couldn't believe it was my first time I had ever played when I told them that. But even though I did that well I am aware that it was a lot of luck - I still have so much to learn.

I love poker I really do. I am very good at most games and think I can become really good at poker but I do need advice and guidance. So I do welcome your comments very much. Thank you. I will read over what you have said a few times and try and use them in my game.

Thanks everyone! I do appreciate it!

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

Not that I disagree with anything you said, but most players start doing this way before they can even understand ABC, let alone XYZ.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

You must choose one:

1. Running well at the right times
2. Having remarkable self control and discipline

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

patience, bankrolling, and talent. oh yes, and luck.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

So if you're not bluffing... this means you're never raising when its folded to you with good position to steal blinds? I don't think a tournament can be won this way without a serious rush of cards.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

IM A REAL TOP PLAYER!!!1

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

[ QUOTE ]

My question is - for all you players who are really good and can expect to finish in the top prizes - did you ever find yourself where I currently am - i.e. seemingly the best I can do is come about 50th? Or have you just got the natural talent?

And for any top players - what is the key to your success? I mean I know my stuff - I play the hands as the books suggest you should do - but I see so many players playing hands that clearly a book says you shouldn't play. Is the key to your style of play - i.e. a tricky opponent, aggressive style, etc. Any advice would be greatly received, I love the game but I want to become so much better and I am not sure what I ought to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, If I'm playing an MTT tournament, I expect to earn back my buy-in on average, and thats with *alot* of variance under human time spans. I don't expect to finish in the top prizes since realistically most players don't. So I'm not dissapointed when I don't finish in the top, and I'm not susprised when I do.

So I guess having a realisitic persepective on what you can achieve is very important to being a top player.

If you want to be a top player, you need to master things other worse players haven't. Basicly, you need to learn and practice self control so that you always play your best. Very very few players do this, because it's hard and not sexy. But if you want to be a top player, it's what you have to do.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

You have to bump up the aggression and steal blinds with position and little else. When the blinds get higher, try stealing from the cutoff and/or button when it's folded to you, regardless of your cards. And don't stop just because someone plays back at you. If you try to steal with 27o and someone reraises you, fold, but try again when you have position. You have to be persistent. I know in my case, aggression also helps me concentrate more because I'm not playing my cards, but the other players.

I am not a top player by any means, but I learned a lot by watching MLG take the top prize in the Stars Sunday tourney several months ago. He was stealing the blinds in the cutoff and it made me realize how valuable it is to make those moves.

When I qualified for the Stars Sunday tourney a few months ago, I decided to use all of the T$ to play 6-handed SnGs, where you really need to be aggressive. There were two things I learned about being the table captain:

1. Other players will play back at you with a wider range of hands when you're taking down a lot of pots. This means your good hands will pay off.

2. If you're aggressive and sometimes force players to make a decision for their entire stack, players will fear you. I did not understand this until I experienced it and thought the converse would be true. This sort of goes against #1, but it's an interesting dichotomy and a valuable one to understand.

I remember one specific hand where I raised 3xBB in the cutoff with 39o, got miniraised by the BB with QQ (he complained about my calling his raise but it wasn't big enough and gave me huge odds). I hit the flop for two pair, he went all-in, and I got paid off. After that the table was all mine.

Playing SnGs can really help because you'll get more experience fighting for blinds in a shorter period of time than you would if you play all MTTs.

Hope this helps. At the moment I'm on a bad run and I'm not sure what my problem is. But when I made the aggression change I made four FTs in a month at the $10 buy-ins @ Stars and UB and it put my BR at a nice level.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You must choose one:

1. Running well at the right times
2. Having remarkable self control and discipline

[/ QUOTE ]

I choose Option # 1. It just seems so much easier than 2.

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry - I forgot to mention I play no limit hold em - tournaments - where the stake to enter is $10 or less.

[/ QUOTE ]

luck

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

As everything else, my opinion is:

time * energy,

investvested in a good way.

Some good ways to invest time and energy in poker are:
*Practice of course
*Diskussing with knowledgable fellow players
*Getting a coach
*Reading books, articles and posts
*Analyzing situations
*...

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
at least seven 9's in your username

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: What is the key to becoming a real top player?
 

Thanks everyone for your tips and advice.

I have been reading some more of my poker book today and 2 simple things came to mind that I realise are real problems with my game - I am so obvious and easy to read. I even think this during games - that people know how I play as I am weak and predictable. My book suggests mixing your game up so people cannot take advantage by playing aggressive and scaring me out of hands, etc. I also don't look closely enough at other people's play of hands - i.e. reading for obvious false play in terms of bluffs - i.e. watching what someone does before the flop and then how they react later in that hand - i.e. most people raise before the flop with a very strong hand - and if they don't then its likely that if a strong flop comes out that they have not got one of the best hands and therefore you can exploit this. Also watching for any players with aggressively high bets late on in a hand that were not as aggressive earlier in hand - is a sign that they don't infact have the best hand, they are trying to force and bully people out of the hand. Just simple things that I never seem to employ in my game.

Is this a good area to work on?