Ace Jack on the button
 

$1000 buyin NLHE at the Commerce. Second level with blinds
of 25/50. CO openraises for T150 He seems to be overly
aggressive. He has about T3000. I have around T2000. We
all start with T1500. I reraise to T475 with AJo on the button. He calls.

Flop comes Ks Kh 9c.

He checks and I bet T500. He calls.

Turn Ks Kh 9c Jd.

He checks, I check.

River a blank. He bets T600. What's my play? The pot if I call is T2625. If I lose I have around T500 in chips left. If I call I'm getting 4:1. I think my play on all
streets is certainly very debatable.

Comments appreciated.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

I don't care if he is overly aggressive, you are putting in 1/4 of your stack preflop with a garbage hand, then putting in another 1/4 on the flop with nothing. Just fold it preflop man, you can get a better spot than this. You are building a HUGE pot preflop with a bad hand. HOWEVER, once you got there, and I think getting there was the mistake, I push the turn and hope he doesn't have a king/boat/straight, which it is pretty likely he has. You showed big strength preflop, your flop bet could mean nothing and he knows this. Push on turn or fold preflop.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

Preflop, my biggest mistake was making the pot big. AJo is not a beauty, but against his range of hands it's probably
a favorite to a big favorite. Calling preflop may have been the best play. As it turns out I have half my stack
in on the flop with nothing. I have a very difficult time
calling on the button when the co raises BTF. I am programmed to reraise or fold when calling may be the best option. Do you like to call on the button when the co
openraises or is this a reraise or fold scenario, excluding pocket Aces, Kings, etc.?

Bruce

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

You shouldn't like playing AJo into raises, especially early. I can pick better spots vs LAGs (if thats what he is, how much is -overly- to you), as they provide them often enough. I REALLY like/favor a fold PF here, its early, 2nd level, you don't want to/ don't need to play this hand into raises at this point in time.

If it was suited, and I had a definite LAG read on him, plus I'm on the button, I maybe would venture a call. I still wouldn't like it though.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

Excellent logic. Thx.

Bruce

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

I don't think there's anything wrong with reraising a LAG opening from the CO when you have AJo on the button.
Don't know why you check the turn, though, unless you really think he has trip kings. A LAG, after all, is perfectly capable of calling with nothing and trying to take the pot away from you. (You could check the flop and bet the turn, but with your line you've put in nearly half your stack by the turn, so I probably get in the rest.)

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

Fenix, folding AJ here is way too weak. You talk about finding other situations. What are those? Wait for AA? I think this is definately a profitable situation.

now whether to call or reraise gets a little trickier. Have you seen him fold to reraises pf? how likely will the blinds come along. How does villan play post flop? is he tricky?

I think i call preflop here, unless you are pretty sure he will fold to the reraise. It gives you a lot more space to manuever post flop with these stacks.

The flop and turn can't be played differently, i don't think.

The river sucks. By just calling preflop this would have been easier. I think you have to call here. He can be pretty
sure you don't have a king. I think he will bet here with a jack/nine/air enough to make this call profitable.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care if he is overly aggressive, you are putting in 1/4 of your stack preflop with a garbage hand, then putting in another 1/4 on the flop with nothing. Just fold it preflop man, you can get a better spot than this. You are building a HUGE pot preflop with a bad hand. HOWEVER, once you got there, and I think getting there was the mistake, I push the turn and hope he doesn't have a king/boat/straight, which it is pretty likely he has. You showed big strength preflop, your flop bet could mean nothing and he knows this. Push on turn or fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJo is a trash hand? Where do you play? Id love to play against you knowing this. It would be a blast.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fenix, folding AJ here is way too weak. You talk about finding other situations. What are those? Wait for AA? I think this is definately a profitable situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is certainly not a garbage hand once it's bene folded to the CO... the reraise was a good play, and i'd even venture to say a push preflop would be fine. increase your stack by 15% and let him know you arne't going to be pushed around.

I call on the river here, and it's an alright line you took to get there.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

-I easily fold this preflop
-I like the aggression on the flop
-I like the check on the turn
-I fold on the end here. If he called your flop bet with nothing, then he deserves this pot and I give it to him.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

I se that theres some debate on the best play preflop here. As I said, I easily fold AJos to a 3x BB raise early. With your stack and the blinds still low, you had no need to make a move anytime soon. At this point in the tourney you're looking to win big hands and avoid trouble spots that may cost you big pots. What type of hand could you possibly envision him having hat is likely to result in you win? Ace-rag? Yet I can envision a ton of hands )AQ, AK, QQ, KK, or AA) that could put you in a huge touble spot. Avoid situations like these by folding preflop, and don't use the fact that this guy has beeen playing loosely as an excuse for you to make marginal calls. Patience. Its early in the tourney, and you have tons of time to trap this guy late on.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

you seriously can't come up with hands that AJ would have beat here?

Folds to teh CO, an already loose player, he could have a HUGE range of hands here. A fold isn't a bad play, but i think a better play would be a raise.. i think even a push is better than folding though.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

It is the second stage of the tournament. You should not take priority in worrying about blind stealing and opponent's possible attempt at blind stealing for 50 chips on the cutoff AT THIS POINT IN TIME. AJo is a garbage hand for THIS SITUATION, as in PLAYING INTO A RAISE. AJo is fine when folded to, and would also be fine when raised later in the tournament when people actually fight for the blinds. I seriously doubt hero has an accurate enough read on villain and rest of the table to answer some of your questions right now. What you end up doing is putting in half your stack, early in the tournament, into pot with Ace high without any real information by taking this line. He called your reraise preflop, and whether or not he is capable of holding garbage here is based on your read, a read which isn't good enough at this point in time for that kind of judgement I wouldn't think.

If you don't think a better situation than that will arise, you are likely wrong. Players overvalue AJ pretty heavily, and just like in the case of KQ, worst thing that can happen often enough is an ace or jack flopping.

I don't think folding AJ to a raise in this spot is too weak, I think it is a very solid play and the clear-cut best play in this situation. Once we have put ourselves in this particular situation, if opponent is a true LAG he will be calling that continuation bet on the flop quite often to see if you show weakness on the turn, so you aren't learning much by betting here(of course this is read based, but your read is what got you in the hand in the first place). A delayed continuation bet on the turn is much more likely to be scarier and successful if he doesn't have a big hand here himself and checks to you again on the turn, since you were representing a very strong hand preflop. Now instead of you showing weakness on the turn, you get to see if he does. If he bets it, you can get away for much less than you would have, if he checks it, you can make the bet now and will end up taking the pot down much more often than you would against a LAG on the flop. You represented a big hand preflop, and a check behind him instead of making a normal continuation bet on this KK9 rainbow board indicates you are either very weak (which with your reraise this early is very doubtful he can put you on without a significant read on his part) or aren't worried about taking down the pot you have bloated preflop on this street, and are ok with giving him a free card, perhaps in hopes of him catching something. Why bet the flop for another 1/4 of your stack and put yourself in such a bad position if called? Check behind him, if he checks you can throw out the bet as a solid attempt at taking the pot down. If he calls turn bet and then checks on river, you have a hard decision to make. You can check behind and hope pair of jacks is good, you can push hoping to induce a fold but not being sure if he is capable of folding a better hand. Checking behind him on the turn you show big weakness, and he may bet river with nothing, and then you have another hard decision. If he calls turn and bets river, you get to get away from the hand -only- losing half your stack.

He called your preflop re-raise, so your re-steal had failed*, why take this less-than-marginal situation this far this early? This isn't about waiting for AA, this is just about a bad spot hero put himself in by simply choosing to play a marginal hand into a raise early in the tournament, and it is a big leak in many players' game. A call PF here can get you in just as much trouble, although in this situation you would have likely saved hero some chips. Doesn't mean it is a much better way to play it though.

*With AJ, a reraise is more of a re-steal, which you can pull on a LAG that has been raising a lot of pots but capable of folding, where you don't really want a call, and its pretty early to be employing moves like that, unless once again you have some kind of remarkable read. A book can be written about the trickyness of AJ/KQ type of hands, and clogging up that one leak alone will impact your game big time. Being results oriented here, compare a fold to any possible line in this situation. You tell me folding here is too weak? Look how much trouble it would save you, and how many complicated decisions you get to avoid. Playing KQ and AJ into early into raises in similar situations like this will often end up putting you in difficult scenarios, just like it had here. I apologize for writing an essay about it here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] but this is the kind of recurring situation that costs many players many chips, and is an easily fixable leak.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

i didnt read your essay but folding AJ on button to CO is very very weeak

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

Not this early in the tournament, although your positional advantage can argue a call.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

yea it is

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

Read my essay. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he calls turn bet and then checks on river, you have a hard decision to make. You can check behind and hope pair of jacks is good, you can push hoping to induce a fold but not being sure if he is capable of folding a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

a river push is a pretty terrible idea.... i dont see how he could be capable of folding a better hand, villain doesn't have QQ+, and he's not folding a K or 66.

--

And back to the strength of AJo.

Yea it's a vulnerable hand, and definitely missplyaed often... but the early stages of a tournament you're supposed to push your edges and try and accumulate chips... vs villains huge range here, which i put at [22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A5o+,KJo+, QJo] and i may have even understated it... you're a 55% favorite.. calling gains no information and you probably have to fold to a non A/J flop.

so.. calling you lose value cause you'll lose to a continuation on the flop... and folding you're going to fold the best hand more often than not...

so i dont see how you can say it's a "clear-cut best play in this situation"

it's definitely not.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

I didn't say a river push is a good idea in this spot, I said it is an option. To me, it wasn't a good idea getting here in the first place. You say folding isn't clear-cut the best play. Then what is? Taking this line? You yourself said you are losing value just calling, but taking this line you are putting half your stack in the middle with nothing. If I somehow got in this scenario personally, i'd fold to a bet on turn, or bet it checked to, and fold to a bet on river or check behind. But my line here remains a solid fold PF. If it was suited, I might venture a call like I said earlier.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

You keep saying that he's putting his stack in the middle with nothign.... so you only play pocket pairs here??? You don't make continuation bets?

There is no clear cut play here. There are different amounts to raise to, or you could fold.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

generally, against overly aggressive players i pick my spots very carefully b/c they prey on loose action when they have a legit hand. While it is very true he could be raising with crap, why put in so much of your stack to find out when if you get called OOP against him your in big trouble. Also, he might smooth call PF with a big hand b/c he knows he will get a lot of loose action on later rounds. Or his call could mean KQ o. the problem is you have no way of knowing and the only way to find out is risking a big portion of your stack and getting in sticky situations like you got into. I agree that folding PF is a much better play or moving in so you dont get in trouble. iF you really feel he is weak dont let him draw out on you or outplay you on later streets b/c u know he's calling your reraise with a wide varitey. If you had AA i think a reraise is proper to induce action but with something as vunerable as AJ o i'd say push or fold PF to avoid much unneeded trouble.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

I am saying he is ending up putting his stack in the middle with relatively nothing ~post-flop~ in that scenario because thats what hero is betting 1/4 of his stack with on flop with. I understand that it is part of the definition of continuation bet, and I believe proper continuation betting is a tremendous key to success, but I explained my reasoning against it here and why i'd prefer a delayed continuation bet here. I called AJo trash because I meant it towards that scenario, not that I wont be willing to get all my chips in with the hand under a different set of circumstances and that it may be a monster in other circumstancs as well.

On the other hand, I like reraises and pushes in this spot a LOT more if it were AQ personally.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

I think I like flat calling preflop. On the river you pretty clearly have odds to call. In between, I think you played it fine.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, I like reraises and pushes in this spot a LOT more if it were AQ personally.


[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between AJ and AQ is not that big here.
Please put villan on a hand range that he will raise from the co, knowing that he is lag.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
yea it is

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not in this position...

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yea it is

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not in this position...

[/ QUOTE ]so you fold AJo on button?

Results
 

I called villians river bet and he turned over KQo.

I feel early in the tournament reraising with AJ suited or
offsuit is probably too aggressive. Against villians range
of possible opening hands AJ is probably too strong to fold.

On the turn I don't see any reason to bet. If he has a pocket pair he has two outs. There is only one overcard
which beats me. If I'm ahead by checking the turn perhaps
I may induce a bluff on a board without any draws.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Bruce

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yea it is

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not in this position...

[/ QUOTE ]so you fold AJo on button?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be re-raising in this spot about 95% of the time. Perhaps I misunderstood your post...

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

I would have to have a decent read to get to get involved with AJo here, and on second stage with "He seems to be overly aggressive" doesn't sound confident enough or enough information to actually label the villain as a LAG. So my play on future streets was according to my read of villain being that of a LAG, because I would not have been in the hand otherwise. And since, rewinding back to PF, I feel that I do not really have that read, AQ to me is a big improvement from AJ. If I did feel that I had that "LAG" read at this point in time, my play PF may have very likely been different, if I thought exit's hand range was pretty accurate. That doesn't seem to be the case when all I know is "He seems to be overly aggressive" and its only the 2nd stage.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

I had never played with villian before. Rounds were one hour long and in around 2 hours of play he had probably raised 6-8 times. Earlier he had raised from the big blind and on a flop with an Ace he made a pot sized flop bet, checked the turn, and then when small blind bet the river he pushed and was not called. I never except for this hand
saw any of his hands. He appeared to be aggressive but it's
also entirely possible that he was getting a good run of cards.

Bruce

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

Why re-raise? You've got position, so why not keep the pot small and see the flop.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

All I'm gonna say about this thread is when not one, but two, maybe more (I only skimmed it) people have written an essay about why it's right to fold AJo on the button to a LAG's CO raise because they can find better spots, it reminds me of calling KK PF in case an ace hits. Also, please sit at my table, preferably to my left.

PS: Given the way you played it and his bet, I can find a fold on the river pretty easily.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yea it's a vulnerable hand, and definitely missplyaed often... but the early stages of a tournament you're supposed to push your edges and try and accumulate chips... vs villains huge range here, which i put at [22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A5o+,KJo+, QJo] and i may have even understated it... you're a 55% favorite.. calling gains no information and you probably have to fold to a non A/J flop.

so.. calling you lose value cause you'll lose to a continuation on the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

how the hell do you lose value by calling when you know he will make a continuation bet?

my head hurts

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

maybe i phrased it wrong..

i was saying you're not gaining information, you're not narrowing his range any (a range that you're ahead of currently). 'losing value' just seemed like a good way to put it.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
All I'm gonna say about this thread is when not one, but two, maybe more (I only skimmed it) people have written an essay about why it's right to fold AJo on the button to a LAG's CO raise because they can find better spots, it reminds me of calling KK PF in case an ace hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you don't have AA, you can always find a better spot. Assuming villain really is a lag here, a reraise seems reasonable, but a call might be better, depending, because of this very situation.

The question is, how often does he fold when caught? If he can't lay a hand down, then there's not much point in a reraise. If you call, as Adanthar said, he'll almost certainly make a continuation bet. Only now the pot is smaller and you've gotten to see the flop at less risk.

If, however, he is the sort of lag that can still lay a hand down pf, then by all means, reraise.

Re: Ace Jack on the button
 

Mathematically a river fold is probably incorrect. If i put
him on a range of hand from pocket pairs, Ace rag, a hand with a Nine in it than with the pot laying me 4 to 1 I think a call is warranted. He's seemingly LAG so he
may have even called with JQ or JT and paired his Jack like I did.

Humanistically, based on his play of the hand I think a fold is much easier to come up with. What else can he have based on his play?

I often get torn between math and the people aspects of poker and the fact we play with very incomplete information.

Bruce

HOH part 1
 

I was reading HOH part 1 last night. Sorry, I don't have the book with me right now for the moment, but early in the book on page 59 (might be wrong but if so I'm close) Dan
goes through a very similar example in one of his problems. The cutoff, who he describles as an overly aggressive player, open raises for 3x the big blind. You are on the
button with AJs. What do you do? Call, fold, or raise. Both blinds are pretty tight. Chip stacks are similar to my scenario. Dan says in a deepstacked situation, like this
tournament, early on he recommends calling. In limit holdem
you would obviously reraise. In a shortstacked tournament you would reraise also, but in a deepstacked event the fact that you don't reraise you are compensated by having the button. This early in the tournament you don't also want
to risk too many chips in this type of situation.

Bruce

Re: HOH part 1
 

deepstacked usually means more than 40BB's i think..

but yea that sounds about right.

Please Note
 

This is only one man's opinion. Dan has a reputation for being tight and the hand he's referring to is AJs. Not sure how much our debate changes with AJo. His book is an
excellent piece, but like any book addressing a complex subject there are always going to be multiple interpretations.

Bruce

Re: HOH part 1
 

His problem had almost identical stacks. The stacks we had were slightly larger and the blinds from his example were
50/100. So I had a slightly larger stack but in his problem the blinds were twice as big. So I guess I'm even
more deepstacked with the smaller blinds than what he's
referring to.

Bruce