I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

I used to be really good at it...
CO is TAG

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds,

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

why not c/r this flop?

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

becuase i saw AJ and assumed i had closed the raising preflop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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becuase i saw AJ and assumed i had closed the raising preflop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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42 tabling again? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I say c/r the flop because when he pulls that turn raise bs, you can get away from your hand for 1 sb cheaper. thoughts?

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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becuase i saw AJ and assumed i had closed the raising preflop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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42 tabling again? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I say c/r the flop because when he pulls that turn raise bs, you can get away from your hand for 1 sb cheaper. thoughts?

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I dont think i can fold to the turn raise if i CR the flop.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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becuase i saw AJ and assumed i had closed the raising preflop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]LOL... you played it good.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

What do you put your opponent on to fold to the turn raise...AQ and AK only? It seems like WHWB situation.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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becuase i saw AJ and assumed i had closed the raising preflop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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42 tabling again? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I say c/r the flop because when he pulls that turn raise bs, you can get away from your hand for 1 sb cheaper. thoughts?

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I dont think i can fold to the turn raise if i CR the flop.

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why? cuz he may put you on spades and be attemtpting to punish your draw? whereas with the line you took,his turn raise HAS to mean business unless he is a total nut? I'm thinking out loud. Am I close?

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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becuase i saw AJ and assumed i had closed the raising preflop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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42 tabling again? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I say c/r the flop because when he pulls that turn raise bs, you can get away from your hand for 1 sb cheaper. thoughts?

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I dont think i can fold to the turn raise if i CR the flop.

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why? cuz he may put you on spades and be attemtpting to punish your draw? whereas with the line you took,his turn raise HAS to mean business unless he is a total nut? I'm thinking out loud. Am I close?

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yeah that was pretty much my thinking.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

FWIW, the largest I've played is 10/20. I don't play online. I consider myself usually TAG. When the table/situation warrants, I loosen a little. I don't know all the numbers and don't consider myself an expert, but I rarely walk away with less than I walked in with. Having said that...

I was with you until your 3-bet on the Flop. I wouldn't have done that. But, you did and MP is still riding along (chasing?) and CO just called? So, maybe you're still ahead.

I definitely would have checked on the Turn. But you didn't and MP's still hanging in and CO either feels he's got you (and MP) or that he can run you off, so he raises. Now you figure you're in deepest doo-doo and bail out. At this point I think I'd have seen the River.

Your question was about learning how to fold. Hell, how can you learn to muck A-J? Who teaches that? Like I said, the only thing I'd have done different was that Flop raise.

Maybe somebody's got a lot of good reasons for you not to have played the hand. I'm anxious to see how the hand played. (inquiring minds and all that)

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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becuase i saw AJ and assumed i had closed the raising preflop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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42 tabling again? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I say c/r the flop because when he pulls that turn raise bs, you can get away from your hand for 1 sb cheaper. thoughts?

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I dont think i can fold to the turn raise if i CR the flop.

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why? cuz he may put you on spades and be attemtpting to punish your draw? whereas with the line you took,his turn raise HAS to mean business unless he is a total nut? I'm thinking out loud. Am I close?

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yeah that was pretty much my thinking.

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OK, but he is gonna take this line with KK-JJ, right? If you call his turn raise, is he gonna bet that river if spades miss? Would he really bet a hand that you beat?

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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FWIW, the largest I've played is 10/20. I don't play online. I consider myself usually TAG. When the table/situation warrants, I loosen a little. I don't know all the numbers and don't consider myself an expert, but I rarely walk away with less than I walked in with. Having said that...

I was with you until your 3-bet on the Flop. I wouldn't have done that. But, you did and MP is still riding along (chasing?) and CO just called? So, maybe you're still ahead.

I definitely would have checked on the Turn. But you didn't and MP's still hanging in and CO either feels he's got you (and MP) or that he can run you off, so he raises. Now you figure you're in deepest doo-doo and bail out.


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Why would I check the turn after bet/3betting the flop.

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At this point I think I'd have seen the River.

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You say you wouldnt have 3bet teh flop, and wouldnt have bet the turn, but now you want me to see the river? I dont get it.


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Your question was about learning how to fold. Hell, how can you learn to muck A-J? Who teaches that? Like I said, the only thing I'd have done different was that Flop raise.

Maybe somebody's got a lot of good reasons for you not to have played the hand. I'm anxious to see how the hand played. (inquiring minds and all that)

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The whole learning how to fold thing wasnt really literall...and I was obviously talking about postflop, not preflop.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

No one said this yet, so I'll take it.

ATh, A8h? Those are the only hands you beat.

Have to consider the reasons for a TAG to back off on the flop. Is he really looking to slowplay after this much flop action from 2 players? Not sure, maybe he has 44, AA, 99 or A9. I can't see too much of a slowplay with AK or AQ.

Come to think of it, I don't see much in the line of 44 or AA either; they are worth a cap on the flop too. 99 probably doesn't play the flop that way for a TAG.

I vote for A9(d), ATh or A8h.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

You missed my point. Sorry I got involved. And sorry I missed what you were "obviously" talking about. Geeze.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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I definitely would have checked on the Turn.

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This is a very results-oriented statement. You can't expect soldier to 3 bet the flop and then check the turn. Playing a "Go &amp; Stop" line when a blank falls is an incredibly weak strategy in this hand.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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You missed my point. Sorry I got involved. And sorry I missed what you were "obviously" talking about. Geeze.

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what was your point?

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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You missed my point. Sorry I got involved. And sorry I missed what you were "obviously" talking about. Geeze.

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what was your point?

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Soldier, sheesh man you are such a bully.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

Aside from the preflop/flop wierdness I like it.

Krishan

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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You missed my point. Sorry I got involved. And sorry I missed what you were "obviously" talking about. Geeze.

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what was your point?

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Soldier, sheesh man you are such a bully.

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I seriously wasnt even trying to be. I guess I can see how my post sorta comes off that way but I really wasnt trying to be mean. Maybe Im just grumpy cuz Ive been running bad.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

I think the same as you here. I think this might be a "Free showdown" move from a showable hand like JJ-KK etc. It's all read dependent but ... He could also have picked the flush draw with his TP... I'm not sure but I think this hand is worth a showdown if the flush card doesn't hit on the river...

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

I would have probably agonized and folded on the turn also, but I can certainly see the case for showing down on a non-flush river card.

If you were in CO's shoes, how would you guys play KK?
I think I would have to fold on the turn.

Thanks,
Cartman

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

I know you want comments on your flop play.. but I think when you 3-bet PF the hand plays an entirely different way. I think the fold is good given the way you played the flop.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

Someone says that he has to have you beat "unless he is a total nut." Well guess what, Party Poker and all internet sites for that matter are full of nuts, and I would pay this hand off. Especially since there is a draw on the board, and even without it I call this down and it is good far more than you would think. Since I started calling hands like this down my winrate has gone way up, and I am willing to lose more pots, because the ones I win more than compensate for the few bad ones. Maybe against a weak player this is a fold, but not against the chumps I see daily on party.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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Someone says that he has to have you beat "unless he is a total nut." Well guess what, Party Poker and all internet sites for that matter are full of nuts, and I would pay this hand off. Especially since there is a draw on the board, and even without it I call this down and it is good far more than you would think. Since I started calling hands like this down my winrate has gone way up, and I am willing to lose more pots, because the ones I win more than compensate for the few bad ones. Maybe against a weak player this is a fold, but not against the chumps I see daily on party.

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We've already established that villain is TAG.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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I know you want comments on your flop play.. but I think when you 3-bet PF the hand plays an entirely different way. I think the fold is good given the way you played the flop.

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ya 3betting pf is my standard play, i thin the only reason i didnt was cuz i had two HU tables going at teh time.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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Aside from the preflop/flop wierdness I like it.

Krishan

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Im assuming this means u three bet preflop...but as it was played you go into WA/WB mode (or just call the flop raise as played)?

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

Since you planned on folding to a raise, I'd rather check/call the river.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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Aside from the preflop/flop wierdness I like it.

Krishan

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Im assuming this means u three bet preflop...but as it was played you go into WA/WB mode (or just call the flop raise as played)?

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Not 3-betting preflop and leading the flop.

Krishan

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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ya 3betting pf is my standard play, i thin the only reason i didnt was cuz i had two HU tables going at teh time.

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i hate 3betting with AJo out of position multiway vs a TAG raise here. you don't have dominating equity and it makes it harder to play postflop

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

vnh

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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becuase i saw AJ and assumed i had closed the raising preflop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]LOL... you played it good.

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I agree. a c/r is too strong. a weak lead is good for the WA/WB situations

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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I know you want comments on your flop play.. but I think when you 3-bet PF the hand plays an entirely different way. I think the fold is good given the way you played the flop.

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ya 3betting pf is my standard play, i thin the only reason i didnt was cuz i had two HU tables going at teh time.

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I really don't like 3-betting AJo there. AQo isn't even an easy raise

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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I know you want comments on your flop play.. but I think when you 3-bet PF the hand plays an entirely different way. I think the fold is good given the way you played the flop.

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ya 3betting pf is my standard play, i thin the only reason i didnt was cuz i had two HU tables going at teh time.

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I really don't like 3-betting AJo there. AQo isn't even an easy raise

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sweet, this can be one of the spots where i can tone down my pf aggression [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] although I think AQ is definately a raise. I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that AQ on a 6 handed table is an auto 3bet no matter where you are and wehre the raise came from. Im pretty sure it was from someone smart like diablo or one of the other old HUSH posters. but if you guys disagree then maybe ill have to change my ways.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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I know you want comments on your flop play.. but I think when you 3-bet PF the hand plays an entirely different way. I think the fold is good given the way you played the flop.

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ya 3betting pf is my standard play, i thin the only reason i didnt was cuz i had two HU tables going at teh time.

[/ QUOTE ]


I really don't like 3-betting AJo there. AQo isn't even an easy raise

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sweet, this can be one of the spots where i can tone down my pf aggression [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] although I think AQ is definately a raise. I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that AQ on a 6 handed table is an auto 3bet no matter where you are and wehre the raise came from. Im pretty sure it was from someone smart like diablo or one of the other old HUSH posters. but if you guys disagree then maybe ill have to change my ways.

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I remeber this as well and think it was one of the better but LAGier types like Nate. I am also unsure though especially when people are talking about paying 5k to take lessons from a guy who doesn't raise AK.

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

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I know you want comments on your flop play.. but I think when you 3-bet PF the hand plays an entirely different way. I think the fold is good given the way you played the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya 3betting pf is my standard play, i thin the only reason i didnt was cuz i had two HU tables going at teh time.

[/ QUOTE ]


I really don't like 3-betting AJo there. AQo isn't even an easy raise

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sweet, this can be one of the spots where i can tone down my pf aggression [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] although I think AQ is definately a raise. I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that AQ on a 6 handed table is an auto 3bet no matter where you are and wehre the raise came from. Im pretty sure it was from someone smart like diablo or one of the other old HUSH posters. but if you guys disagree then maybe ill have to change my ways.

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I remeber this as well and think it was one of the better but LAGier types like Nate. I am also unsure though especially when people are talking about paying 5k to take lessons from a guy who doesn't raise AK.

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lol, tommy lessons arent really about how to play poker, they are about how to be a poker player. (i think)

Re: I\'m trying to learn how to fold
 

I don't mind a preflop call in this situation.

I like your turn fold.

Surf