Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

Over the past month or so (10K hands) my vpip has been steadily decreasing, from 19 to 16. PFR has remained at about 10. Am I passing up on too many equity edges?

When I first started reading the boards about a year ago, the 'norm' was about where I am now. Now most of you guys are in the 20+/12+ range. Is my learning curve that much slower, or am I looking for larger edges to push, and foregoing the marginal ones?

I'm still in the 11/12 PFR range from MP2 and later, but 6's and 7's up front. Natural evolution, or weak-tightness?

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

You're avatar scares me.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

your spelling scares me.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

Your keep bumping into me scares me.

Seriously, I saw you at the casino, you only have 83 posts and I must've seen or replied to about 20 of them, some of them not recognizing the name until after I've posted.

I'm not a stalker either. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

It depends on the game. At 0.5/1 I was about 18/9, and the tables were generally 4 to the flop. At 1/2 I'm about 17/11, with the increased PFR due to the ability to isolate loose limpers. Your PFR will be high on tables where you can isolate, and on really loose tables (7 to the flop type where you can raise many suited hands for value in late position after lots of limpers). Don't explicitly try to play looser for the sake of playing looser, but do realize where some marginal edges that you may be passing up exist.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

Wow, someone from Waterloo... Never saw that before.
Student?

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

Yep, going into 4th year of Electrical Engineering. You might want to PM Isura. I hear he's trying to set up a 2+2 home game in Waterloo.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

[ QUOTE ]
Over the past month or so (10K hands) my vpip has been steadily decreasing, from 19 to 16. PFR has remained at about 10. Am I passing up on too many equity edges?

When I first started reading the boards about a year ago, the 'norm' was about where I am now. Now most of you guys are in the 20+/12+ range. Is my learning curve that much slower, or am I looking for larger edges to push, and foregoing the marginal ones?

I'm still in the 11/12 PFR range from MP2 and later, but 6's and 7's up front. Natural evolution, or weak-tightness?

[/ QUOTE ]

probably both.

you might be self self-selecting certain tables that cause you to tighten up from EP a lot, or not allow you to play otherwise "limpable" hands either in EP or elsewhere.

or you may be passing up edges...

the "stats" of representing our game will change because of because of the games we are in and because of active effort (ie, learning more). i don't know whether this will be useful of pertinent, but here is my own data:

The images are my positional stats from 1/2 full and 3/6 full. They are hard (and interesting) to interpret for 2 reasons. First, I have been learning over this time period (over 1 year of play) and my game has evolved. Whether it has evolved for better or for worse is questionable, hopefully the former!. Second, the 1/2 game is somewhat different than the 3/6 game (though fundamentally the same imho).

Anyway, I have morphed from a 18.2/10.2 at 1/2 to 21.3/13.5 at 3/6.

Personally, I would say that the change has resulted from both active table selection (putting myself in positions where I can isolate people, or buy the button from a rock) and learning. (and at 3/6 i'm running realllllllly well so i've been getting lots of good cards to play.)

Just 1/2:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/JM2005/just12.jpg
Just 3/6:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/JM2005/just36.jpg

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

when I was a micro'er, I was 17/8 (.5/1 and 1/2 full)

one needs to be comfortable postflop to play 20+ VPIP in full games IMO, and I wasn't at that stage yet at micro limits. just because it's right for Entity or DeathDonkey, I really hope it hasn't become forum gospel.

someone put the 'tight' back in TAG, please.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

[ QUOTE ]
when I was a micro'er, I was 17/8 (.5/1 and 1/2 full)

one needs to be comfortable postflop to play 20+ VPIP in full games IMO, and I wasn't at that stage yet at micro limits. just because it's right for Entity or DeathDonkey, I really hope it hasn't become forum gospel.

someone put the 'tight' back in TAG, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is really true and i quote for emphasis.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
when I was a micro'er, I was 17/8 (.5/1 and 1/2 full)

one needs to be comfortable postflop to play 20+ VPIP in full games IMO, and I wasn't at that stage yet at micro limits. just because it's right for Entity or DeathDonkey, I really hope it hasn't become forum gospel.

someone put the 'tight' back in TAG, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is really true and i quote for emphasis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally, I don't feel bad about being an 16/8.

DMBFan - If you read this again, tell me/us what your VPIP/PFR are at your new limits. Just curious if I should be loosening up once I get past 2/4 or so. Anyone else, feel free to chime in.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

You have to play whatever style you're comfortable with. But yes, I do think that you are passing up a lot of +EV situations by playing not playing more hands.

I think playing good and tight preflop is important and will help a lot as you move up to 2/4 and behind. But IMO at .5/1 and good 1/2 and even 2/4 games, you need to be looking for any reason to get involved in pots with the loose passives, b/c you can so easily outplay them post flop.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

sup dude,

I was about 18/11 at 2/4 and maybe 18.5-19/11 or so at 3/6 IIRC. I actually loosened up more than the numbers would show as I moved from 2/4 to 3/6, where the 1/3 blind structure would call for tighter play. I'm about 24.5/18 at 5/10 6max and I'm definitely not the same player I was BS (Before Shorthanded) - not sure what that translates to in a full ring game.

it's kind of natural to tighten up when you enter a new environment, whether it be the tighter 1/2, a 6max game for the first time, a new blind structure, more aggressive game, whatever. Feeney even lists it as one of the tips to making a move up the limits in Inside The Poker Mind - you will have less of an edge postflop due to better players, so starting off with a bigger edge preflop will help as you adjust.

that will happen postflop as well, you might start off a new limit folding too much postflop, and slowly your WtSd will rise as you see spots to make good calldowns, especially given the increased aggression. so don't worry if you start off a new limit and your VP$IP is below 18, or your WtSD is below 30...just get used to the new bet sizes and swings, then expand your game as you get used to it.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

Thanks for the good post. I particularly appreciate your description of the adjustment to a new level. Hopefully, it'll remain valuable to me for a while! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

I've gone from 18/8 to a 20/9 in recent months. And I couldn't really tell you where that extra 2% is (it's only 2 extra hands per 100).

But honestly my VPIP and what hands I play go up and down as the night progresses, depending on the table, who has limped, who has raised, etc. The same night and same table I'm raising A9s I might be folding KQo, depending on who came in...

If I'm playing at a table with a lot of 50+ VPIP'ers, my VPIP is probably going to be 25%. Because I can play more hands against those guys, and still be good.

If I'm playing at a table with 6 20-24% VPIP'ers, my VPIP is probably going to be 16-18%, because my limps with suited K's on the button really don't look all that attractive against one EP 22% VPIP limper.

KO

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm playing at a table with a lot of 50+ VPIP'ers, my VPIP is probably going to be 25%. Because I can play more hands against those guys, and still be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is key. All to often I'm at a great table and all "TAGs" are at 18/9/3 or whatever and don't adjust there games. Great for me, but bad for them.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the good post. I particularly appreciate your description of the adjustment to a new level. Hopefully, it'll remain valuable to me for a while! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

As he said, thanks dmbfan.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
when I was a micro'er, I was 17/8 (.5/1 and 1/2 full)

one needs to be comfortable postflop to play 20+ VPIP in full games IMO, and I wasn't at that stage yet at micro limits. just because it's right for Entity or DeathDonkey, I really hope it hasn't become forum gospel.

someone put the 'tight' back in TAG, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is really true and i quote for emphasis.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%... but it is also true that the game is changing a little bit again, as lots of players are following starting hand charts and tightening up preflop (especially true online). Playing 16/8 ABC poker will not be a significant winner in those games unless you are a monster postflop. But if you are a monster postflop, then you should be loosening up your preflop play to give you more chances to take advantage of your superior postflop play.

16/8 ABC poker is an excellent way to start. But if you're interested in doing more with poker, you've got to get beyond it. Moving up to 18/10 (then 20/12) poker is a big step forward.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

hmm, I would think that 16/8 would require less postflop skill - your postflop errors are compensated for by your larger preflop edge when you do play.

with a looser style, you're in more marginal situations that you can play skillfully into a higher winrate, or you can bury yourself. for those people who can play that extra X% profitably, then you gotta play them. I certainly wasn't arguing that people should forego +EV situations to preserve variance. those arguments are all BS anyway [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. I was just saying that those situations are +EV for fewer players than we might think, and for those players they gotta be 16-17/7-8 while you learn the basics.

I personally was still working on fundamental postflop concepts at micros, and didn't really have the comfort level to work on that and expanding preflop at the same time, especially given the marginal situations that would tend to put one in. for the posters who have played many many hands of micros, and the basics of postflop are more familiar, then sure start to push the envelope. but for those posters, it's probably time to move up in limits anyway - don't you want to be beating 3/6 instead of crushing .5/1? for me the 'enlightenment' didn't really start to happen till midway through 2/4, but everyone's mileage may vary.

I think we're saying the same thing, but I still wanted to clarify.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

when i read this thread i imagine it being the topic of a real life conversation, and i can't help but laugh when i imagine people saying, "yeah i started out sixteen-eight but morphed to twenty-twelve. slag is the new tag."

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

I think we're starting down a tangent, but I'm going there anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
hmm, I would think that 16/8 would require less postflop skill - your postflop errors are compensated for by your larger preflop edge when you do play.

[/ QUOTE ]

16/8 requires less postflop skill than 18/10 or higher. However, as internet full rings games tighten up (as all the loose idiots run to the action 6-max games), I don't expect 16/8 to be very profitable anymore (I doubt it will be *un*profitable -- just quite a bit less profitable). You're losing your preflop edge because the average player is getting tighter preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
with a looser style, you're in more marginal situations that you can play skillfully into a higher winrate, or you can bury yourself. for those people who can play that extra X% profitably, then you gotta play them. I certainly wasn't arguing that people should forego +EV situations to preserve variance. those arguments are all BS anyway [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. I was just saying that those situations are +EV for fewer players than we might think, and for those players they gotta be 16-17/7-8 while you learn the basics.

[/ QUOTE ]

We agree on this 100%. 16/8 is all about mastering the basics.

Re: Cause or effect? VPIP sliding
 

[ QUOTE ]
hmm, I would think that 16/8 would require less postflop skill - your postflop errors are compensated for by your larger preflop edge when you do play.

with a looser style, you're in more marginal situations that you can play skillfully into a higher winrate, or you can bury yourself. for those people who can play that extra X% profitably, then you gotta play them. I certainly wasn't arguing that people should forego +EV situations to preserve variance. those arguments are all BS anyway [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. I was just saying that those situations are +EV for fewer players than we might think, and for those players they gotta be 16-17/7-8 while you learn the basics.

I personally was still working on fundamental postflop concepts at micros, and didn't really have the comfort level to work on that and expanding preflop at the same time, especially given the marginal situations that would tend to put one in. for the posters who have played many many hands of micros, and the basics of postflop are more familiar, then sure start to push the envelope. but for those posters, it's probably time to move up in limits anyway - don't you want to be beating 3/6 instead of crushing .5/1? for me the 'enlightenment' didn't really start to happen till midway through 2/4, but everyone's mileage may vary.

I think we're saying the same thing, but I still wanted to clarify.

[/ QUOTE ]

additional random thought

recently, since my vpip/pfr numbers have "gone to sLAG" i often find myself playing by the seat of my pants. i am definitely not a postflop master -- but i am learning a ton (and also paying a ton) by doing it against the players at my current limit instead of testing the waters at lower limits.

so part of me says to myself - dumba[/i]ss, the poop's gonna hit the fan when you stop catching cards. but then again, it has made the game challenging and fun...since i'm in new situations and am thus forced to think about what to do again.

can i sustain success at 22/13? i don't know. hopefully.