A pair of hands.
 

The whole table is pretty damn passive, and both villains here would rather check a hand to the river than bet middle pair.

Hand 1:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero...

Fairly sure he's got an A here, and the odds are a little against me since two of the cards I outkick give him two pair. I could see going WA/WB, checkraising the turn or 3-betting here. What's our plan?

Hand 2:
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero...

I don't like this at all, and someone's going to have to do same damned good arguing to advocate seeing the turn. Anyone wanna step up?

Re: A pair of hands.
 

Hand 1 : Check/call, check/call, bet.

Hand 2 : Raise the flop, if he 3bets, then like a gentle breeze on a summer's day may your cards find the muck.

Re: A pair of hands.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 : Check/call, check/call, bet.

Hand 2 : Raise the flop, if he 3bets, then like a gentle breeze on a summer's day may your cards find the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 2 if we raise and get 3-bet, the pot is going to be 18SB back to us. Set draw, BDFD, BDSD. Peel and fold the turn unimproved, no?

Re: A pair of hands.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 : Check/call, check/call, bet.

Hand 2 : Raise the flop, if he 3bets, then like a gentle breeze on a summer's day may your cards find the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 2 if we raise and get 3-bet, the pot is going to be 18SB back to us. Set draw, BDFD, BDSD. Peel and fold the turn unimproved, no?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah we can do that.

Re: A pair of hands.
 

that seems like the best line to me

Re: A pair of hands.
 

Ugh. I hate when these types of things happen.

Hand 1 - If we take a WA/WB line we need to have or improve to the best hand 1/4 times for this to be profitable. Based on your reads I think he has to have at least an ace, so if behind we're drawing to a three outer. The question is how often are we behind. I think a lot, and I fold.

Hand 2 - I think it depends on how good your read of the opponent. I think we are likely way behind and drawing thin with him leading the flop into us. You always have the random donk factor that this guy has 1010 or 99 or something, so I think maybe you can continue, but I think you can fold here.

I give absolutely zero thought to table image to in micro games so I'm not factoring that in.

EDIT: The more I think about hand 2, I think a fold is really bad. The pot is big and the random donk factor can't be ignored. I like a raise. If 3bet, call and fold the turn UI. If just called, I would fold to a turn donkbet, if checked to to on the turn bet to take a free showdown, folding to a c/r.

Re: A pair of hands.
 

[ QUOTE ]
someone's going to have to do same damned good arguing to advocate seeing the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I have 13sb's worth of an argument, is that enough?

Re: A pair of hands.
 

Folding Hand #1 without a fight is ridiculous. Hero shouldn't give any free cards, for that matter. Bet the turn, fold to a raise.

Re: A pair of hands.
 

Deleted my original post, after more thought i think we should:

Hand 1:

After thinking for a while, i say fold.

Why:
- Tiny Pot,
- Passive player with aggression,
- Top pair and weak kicker on a low board,
- If we hit an ace it wont help and chance sof hitting 8 are low.
- If we 3bet, he wont cap with AT, A9, he'll probably call down and then we lose UI.
- You say they are passive, im assuming he has a nice kicker or 2pair.

Hand 2:
I don't see what calling achieves, if we were first in i may call then donk bet and fold to a raise?

Raising or folding are the options.

Raising: If 3bet we can fold, If he calls is it because(We capped, he thinks we have set? Or he missed the King?)

The pot is big, We have middle PP, BDFD and BDSD but the hand i put him on beat us.
AA/KK/JJ/AK and you say the tables passive.

In conclusion, I fold.

Re: A pair of hands.
 

hand #1: [ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn, fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ] this is the best line.

hand #2: call here. fold the turn UI. count your outs and compare to the pot size (Fundamental poker):

1.5 outs for BDSD + 1.5 outs for BDFD + 2 outs for Qs: 5 outs. need 9:1 and getting 14:1. easiest call ever. even if you discount our BDFD for the possibility of being up against a higher flush, we're getting good odds.

Re: A pair of hands.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

one. i'd raise preflop (sorry).
two. you can't c/c c/c b- the flop because there was absolutely no preflop action. he could have anthing. so the flop bet is great. i'd definitely call the flop raise and see what happens on the turn. i don't like bet-folding the turn, but since villian is passive, he is unlikely to raise a donkbet and if he does you are toast. so perhaps i lead the turn UI, or improved.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2:
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero...


[/ QUOTE ]

ok, i think a case can be made for calling the flop or raising. if the read is "unlikely to bet middle pair" then i think that pushes us towards calling this. if he's insanely bad, i'd raise and call a 3-bet. clearly, as others have pointed out, 14:1 is about enough to call with ~3 outs. (2 queens, 1 for both backdoors)

Re: A pair of hands.
 

Here are the playouts:

Hand 1:
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP has As 8s (one pair, aces).
Hero has 8h Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP wins 4.75 BB. Hero wins 4.75 BB. </font>

Hand 2:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Well at least I gained some information about the villain in Hand 1. I felt dumb playing hand 2 the way I did, though in hindsight I think I overlooked my BDFD so it wasn't so bad.

Re: A pair of hands.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folding Hand #1 without a fight is ridiculous. Hero shouldn't give any free cards, for that matter. Bet the turn, fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a small pot. Based on his reads the raise means that the passive player has top pair or better. It would help a lot if I knew whether the passive player raises big aces preflop. If he doesn't it is a clear fold, if he does then maybe we can think about it a little more.

Re: A pair of hands.
 

I really really don't understand the c/r in hand #1.