PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

No notes.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

completely standard?

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

Looks weak to me. I think you need to bet your draws HU. Your opponent could conceivably bet the turn with almost anything, given the weakness you showed on the flop. I'd probably bet the flop, and the turn, and the river until he gave me some indication he'd got a hand. If you don't bet the flop I think you need to raise the turn when your Q hits giveing a weak king the opportunity to fold and buying yourself a free showdown on the river.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

Very weak. Bet flop. Bet turn. Check river UI, bet any improvement.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

eh you people realise that 3 betting preflop then checking the flop out of position is a very rare move and thus usually means one type of range?

raising the turn is probably the worst possible thing i can think of doing in this hand, well, other than folding when checked to.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

Bet the flop. If you think he's slowplaying a monster, check behind on the turn for the free card when he should try to check raise you. If he check raises the flop or bets out on the turn you've put in a few extra small bets with a decent draw.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

This is 5-handed so the BB's standards for a 3 bet are considerably less. I think he has A-something (not AK) and whiffed the flop.

I agree that raising the turn is not hot given the flop action since you will win more when ahead and lose less when behind by calling. However I would bet the flop and the turn if checked to. Your hand is definitely worth a showdown after pairing on the turn.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

i think whiffed flop hands are much much more likely to bet the flop than big hands. then factor in big hands are much more likely to bet the river than whiffed flop hands.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

i agree with this strategy. i hate the flop check.

TSP

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
raising the turn is probably the worst possible thing i can think of doing in this hand, well, other than folding when checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, its just the way you played it I can't see how you're so sure you're not up against a mid/low pocket pair, or an Ax or AT, or even another QJ, especially against an unknown opponent.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't bet the flop I think you need to raise the turn when your Q hits giveing a weak king the opportunity to fold and buying yourself a free showdown on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This thinking seems very far off to me. What kind of opponent will be aggressive enough to 3bet a "weak king" preflop and then fold top pair headsup?

As far as the hand itself I agree that 3 bet then flop check is a super scary move and usually means monster. I think you played it fine and although a river fold may be best I would be tempted to show down once my hand improved on the turn.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

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No notes.



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= Call river. Otherwise I think you played it right.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

I think all is fine, except I'd call the river. If the BB had a strong hand, then he definitely got a lot fewer bets than he should have had he lead out on the flop. By calling, either we win the hand, or we lose less than we should have.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

i would call the river.
i like the rest....
i think betting the fliop would be really horrible.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

not if you check the turn

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
not if you check the turn

[/ QUOTE ]he might not give this luxury.
besides, if he is really scared w/ an underpair, the only way to make him fold, is by letting him bet and then raising.
if you bet, he will checkcall with 88 all the way to his sucky content.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

5-handed, I'd consider calling the river, despite the clear signal that he has a monster.

I think the flop check is clearly best, as in my experience, betting the flop hoping for the free turn card is not likely to succeed. Betting and even 3-betting the flop looking or a "free" turn card isn't terrible though.

-Eric

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

I know what you're trying to say with this hand, but do you think his flop check followed by a turn bet translates to "AQ or better" at least 86% of the time? It's pretty hard to estimate these kind of probabilities, but my gut feel is that, though you are absolutely correct to be suspicious of a monster, you cannot be sure enough of it to pass up 6.25:1 on the river.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

in my opinion, there are only two possibilities. he either has a monster like top set, or he three bet you with JJ. i think that this hand is difficult to play considering the preflop action. i think that i would call the river for information purposes if you dont have much on this player to begin with. very deceptive play.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

I definately bet the flop. IMO, this 3-bet followed by a check is a monster wayyy less than you guys think in the 30/60 game.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

Not having read any other response, why not bet the flop, then if he really flopped a monster and he goes for a turn c/r you get to save a half bet. Although you have to follow through on your plan to check once you hit that queen.

P.S. isn't there more than a 6-1 chance you are good on the river? I mean, i can think of about twenty hands that he would 3-bet pre-flop with that you can beat. AT sticks out in my head.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

I like it a lot. I might be inclined to call the river just to make sure he plays a set of kings like this. The bet you lose will be reaped later.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
No notes.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

completely standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

the english monk says you done good.

Barron

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very weak. Bet flop. Bet turn. Check river UI, bet any improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

5 handed he could be 3-betting lots of hands here like 77-99, AJ, KK, whatever. I'd call the river to see what he 3bet then checked the flop with, given that I called the turn. Would a turn fold be horrible? Pot is pretty tiny.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

flop check is standard for me. all1n says that a pf 3bet plus flop check is a monster less than wed think, but you still have no semibluff equity here. i dont think ive ever seen a player 3bet preflop and check-call/fold the flop check-fold the turn. river is a really nice laydown. solid

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

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I know what you're trying to say with this hand, but do you think his flop check followed by a turn bet translates to "AQ or better" at least 86% of the time?

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.. followed by river bet. That's the street that defines his hand a lot in my opinion. The turn bet doesn't change anything, i think that range is the exact same as his flop check range.

I just think it's really likely he has the monster hands. Monster hands are a tiny bit more likely preflop, say 3:2. On the top i think they become a lot more likely, say 3:1 i.e. 3 monsters for every 1 weak. Turn nothing changes, 1:1 here. River about 2:1 more likely.

Maybe betting the flop for a free turn was a good plan, shrug. I'd never get a chance to define his hand then though, his river bet could be a lot in that line.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

Pre-flop: obviously, no problem.

Flop: IF you agree that the check on the flop is the correct line, then I think the rest is correct as well, but--

--I believe you're still best off finding out some information on the flop when it's a SB.

Could he make this same play with JJ or 99?

While I know you risk getting caught in check-raises more often then not when you auto-bet in position with these types of hands, I still think between the open-ender and back-door flush draw, combined with your position on the guy (further compounded by you having no notes on him...)

Speaking of which, isn't that also part of the equation, then, or am I reading too much into it: is this an entirely new player since you have zero notes on him? That being the case...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

I like checking this flop..... I would say that at least 80% of the time he is holding a very strong hand (10's,K10,AK). What kind of hand would he check with that is weak here? Maybe he has an underpair to the K and the 10, and was trying to isolate you? Although, I would think that he would bet that too.... He either completely wiffed, which means he 3 Bet with a very weak hand, he holds a monster or he is one hell of a good player that knows that you will check behind! I am going to go with the monster.... why not take a free card with a draw?

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

On the flop, the thing is about betting if you get check/raised you spend a BB, but it's not even close to a full BB, you have those good nut outs and there's a decent chance he's doing something weird and you have pair outs too which brings your equity in that BB on the flop up pretty high.

On the other hand, he's probably not folding, if you bet the flop and he calls you should check behind on the turn so you're playing to save just 1 SB, (you get 1 SB in on the flop instead of 1 BB in on the turn), vs. risking putting a BB in on the flop. Still though because of equity %'s and the way the hand plays out it feels better if you bet the flop.

He 3 bet preflop, if he has AK, AQ, AJ he has you beat. Was he making this play with AT or a low pocket pair? Probably not, he probably wouldn't 3 bet preflop with those (maybe he would with AT), and can he risk check/raising here? Doesn't seem like it. Still there is some doubt, he could be playing JJ, AT, a low pocket pair weirdly. What do you think Jay about this?

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
I definately bet the flop. IMO, this 3-bet followed by a check is a monster wayyy less than you guys think in the 30/60 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is your point that a good player will do this 3bet or 4bet preflop and check flop with both monsters and nothing at all?

In the first case he risks very little and in the second case he can take the whole pot with a turnbet because other guy will check flop "knowing he is up against a monster"?

At least this is how I think when I check flop HU after reraising preflop against thinking players that knows I am a thinking player. I 3bet with KQ, flop is Axx, I check, they check, I bet turn and they proudly folds their pocketpair.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe betting the flop for a free turn was a good plan, shrug. I'd never get a chance to define his hand then though, his river bet could be a lot in that line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to define his hand?? After betting the flop, you check behind the turn unless you hit a straight, and then on the river you call if you have a pair, fold if you don't, and bet/raise if you have a straight.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is your point that a good player will do this 3bet or 4bet preflop and check flop with both monsters and nothing at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not good players, but bad ones (this guy is unknown). They 3-bet with J8s because they like putting in money preflop, but the flop comes KTx and they don't like that, so they check with the intention of folding. I've seen this sort of play a fair number of times, but I haven't seen the check as a slowplay particularly often.

[ QUOTE ]
I 3bet with KQ, flop is Axx, I check, they check, I bet turn and they proudly folds their pocketpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice example, btw.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

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Very weak. Bet flop. Bet turn. Check river UI, bet any improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
No notes.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

completely standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, with your nut str8 draw + your bd 2nd nut flush draw, it seems to me that you want to see a river for as cheap as possible if the turn blanks; this, since a turn semibluff raise seems out of the question given villain possible monster.

so the thinking may be by betting the flop, you will get a free turn (if needed) a certain % of the time and if you hit the turn you hand may be disguised because you did bet the flop.

even if your flop bet gets raised, your big draws still allow you to get to the river, right?

that said, bet the flop and check behind on the turn if the str8 doesn;t come in.

edit- villain does not appear to me to be necessarily sitting on a monster. i would define it as possible but not likely ~33%. after all hero opened on the button not utg.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

kiddo, if jay bets the flop and gets called i think jay should check the turn. it means his opponent probably has AQ or AJ which has outs and probably started checking with the plan of calling down.

Re: PFR 3 bet, flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I know what you're trying to say with this hand, but do you think his flop check followed by a turn bet translates to "AQ or better" at least 86% of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

.. followed by river bet. That's the street that defines his hand a lot in my opinion. The turn bet doesn't change anything, i think that range is the exact same as his flop check range.

I just think it's really likely he has the monster hands. Monster hands are a tiny bit more likely preflop, say 3:2. On the top i think they become a lot more likely, say 3:1 i.e. 3 monsters for every 1 weak. Turn nothing changes, 1:1 here. River about 2:1 more likely.


[/ QUOTE ]
So overall you're saying that he's 6 times more likely to hold AQ or better than not? If so, you have to call cause you're getting the right odds.