WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I have a friend who claims to be a "Die Hard Libertarian"... but every-time he we argue it goes like this...

Screw the Governement [even though we need them]

Screw politician [even though we will never get rid of them]

And... I'm a libertarian... [but I'm forced pretty much vote democrat party lines]

WTF... Please help

P.S. He usually throws in a couple "I hate Bush" just for good measure.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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And... I'm a libertarian... [but I'm forced (to) pretty much vote democrat party lines]

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I can clear it up. I'm a libertarian ... but I'm forced to pretty much vote Republican party lines.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

Well if he's a libraterian, he certainly wouldn't be voting Democrat.

There isn't enough information to really comment on the rest.

How old is your friend.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

Starting with the assumption that your truly a libraterian, you aren't forced to vote Republican. Less and less these days can you even consider them the lesser or two evils. Moreover, the entire lesser of two evils arguement has precipitated the current political malaise in this country.

Vote libraterian, they are usually on the ballot. That's what I did last election.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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... you aren't forced to vote Republican. Less and less these days can you even consider them the lesser or two evils.

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Less and less, I agree. But when it comes to issues involving personal property rights, and economic freedom there is still a clear divide along party lines.

My vote is about not allowing the children to run the household -- the Libertarian-Republican choice boils down to choosing either Mom or Dad -- if it's clear one of the parents will win, I'll vote Libertarian. If it appears the children may win -- I'll back the odds on parent.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I'm a registered Libertarian, but my views differ a bit, mainly in regards to economics.

Your friend sounds like he's just trying to sound like a hardass. Libertarians do not think "screw the government," (though "I hate Bush" might come up [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), since Libertarians understand that the government is a very necessary entity. They believe that the government should be scaled down, not removed. The latter would be Anarchy.

As far as voting Democrat...I honestly don't see how you would. The issue of Gun Control sticks out like a sore thumb to me. I have a right to carry a weapon, and I won't support a group of people trying to take that right away.

However, voting Republican has its downfalls as well. I won't support a party that censors and removes essential liberties from the people. The USA Patriot Act (passed under the Bush Administration) is an abomination. The constant push towards making governmental decisions based on religious beliefs is also a very dangerous and frightening thing.

I think we as Libertarians are mostly having to vote based on the "lesser of two evils." In the 2004 election, I voted Kerry simply because I didn't want to see Bush in office again. Would I have voted for Kerry under any other circumstances? Absolutely not.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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... you aren't forced to vote Republican. Less and less these days can you even consider them the lesser or two evils.

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Less and less, I agree. But when it comes to issues involving personal property rights, and economic freedom there is still a clear divide along party lines.

My vote is about not allowing the children to run the household -- the Libertarian-Republican choice boils down to choosing either Mom or Dad -- if it's clear one of the parents will win, I'll vote Libertarian. If it appears the children may win -- I'll back the odds on parent.

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This is a crock of sheet, no offense. Republicans are not any better on economic issues than Democrats, and Democrats are slightly better on personal issues.

Scoot-moderate libertarian who voted for Badnarik in 2004.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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This is a crock of sheet, no offense. Republicans are much better on economic issues than Democrats, and Democrats are much better on personal issues.


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FYP

Cody

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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This is a crock of sheet, no offense. Republicans are much better on economic issues than Democrats, and Democrats are much better on personal issues.


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FYP

Cody

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Not really.

Republcians just prefer to borrow and spend instead of tax and spend. Both parties spend a lot so the economic issues are really negated. What good are tax cuts if you're running 400 billion dollar deficits? As for the personal issues, Democrats are slightly better on issues like the drug war, but it's not really much difference.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I see little evidence of a single reform the president has taken to protect property rights.

Moreover, his reckless fiscal policy and ultimately unpopular presidency will result in a political backlash that will put the socialist in power.

As for your analogy, I'm confused.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

You raise a good point, how many of us (I actually voted for Badnarick) would vote Libertarian if we all agreed to do it. To simplify, how many of us are there. Alot of us vote for the lesser of two evils (R-cause we agree with their economics, D-cause we aggre with their social policies), but what if we all came out of hiding and voted Lib in the next election.
Surely it's only 5% max, but it could be fun to see.

Cody

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

Scoot,
I agree about the deficit, but I tend to think that this is a symptom of the Bush admin. that spends money like it's going to spoil.
As for the social issues, aside from gun control, I think that dems are clearly ahead of Reds in the sense that Adam and Steve and Madem and Eve don't bother them. Also, more Dems favor the legalization of marijuana (I believe). Lastly, they tend to adapt the overall mentality that "My opinion shouldn't be made law, unless that which I don't like endangers my freedoms," which in my opinion is how it should be.

Cody

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

It's really hard to say. Being a libraterian requires a certain measure of humbleness, and I honestly think the average person is to arrogant to embrace the it.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I agree, but I also think that Libertarian thinking can lend itself to apathy (i.e. "I don't want to police my neighbor so [censored] it"). It's a weak line, but perhaps I'm just blinded by optimism.

Cody

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I don't know if it's a symptom of the Bush administration or any particular political group. I think the deficiet is an accurate reflection of the voting public. Current voters don't have to pay that deficiet, so it's not surprising that current politicians reflect that fact.

People demand the deficiet because they don't care. It is a reflection of thier own personal budgetary habits.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I don't know. I think it's possible to be a nosy bastard and still be a libraterian. You simply don't want to get the government involved.

For instance, you could be against the drug war and still organize the people in your community to try and keep drugs out.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

Oh I agree, but what I was saying is that the drastically lower taxes and the illusion that "we can do whatever we want" might help spur on potential voters.

Cody

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

Well...I find that I can usually outpoint people in political discussions these days, but still, people tend to vote how they have voted historically. I'm not being pessimistic...that's just a fact, because part of people's identities are rooted in their political affiliations, typically.

I still think you should vote Libertarian, even if you know we're not going to win that particular race. But...you never know...I don't think the political landscape is necessarily a permanently solid state, nor do I think that the two current parties have to remain in power forever...they just have been around for the most recent century or so(in their present incarnations, though not even that is completely accurate).

Personally, I did not vote in the 2004 election b/c I hated the two main candidates and I was not convinced about Badnarik.

Also...libertarianism is not saying, "I don't want to police my neighbor, so [censored] it." It's saying, "I don't know what my neighbor's doing, and I don't really care, as long as he's not infringing someone else's rights or doing things on my property.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I consider myself a Libertarian, but couldn't bring my self to pull the lever for Badnarik. Perhaps if I hadn't watched some of the Libertarian debate I would have been able to.

The current flavor of Repubs certainly isn't closer to Libertarianism, IMO. Legislating christianity, police state, war on America(err drugs), etc, etc..

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

So who'd you vote for?

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

A typical libertarian looks at the world from his own perspective with little regard to the interrelationships of everything around him.

It's cafeteria politics. Republicans say some good things and bad things. Hmmm...I'll take the good things, thanks. Same for Dems. Trouble is, in the real world, to make something good in one area you have to sacrifice something in another area. Libertarians are either unwilling or incapable of facing this obvious fact and are essentially living in a dream world.

They want to have their cake and eat it too.

An anarcho-capitalist OTOH is such a nutjob that he may actually be on to something... [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I'm not entirely sure what you base these claims on. Can you cite some specific policy differences you have with libraterians.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I really just wanted to know what the theory behind the libertarian party is?

Not so much on who voted for who in the last election... but what are the key speaking points of their platform.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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A typical libertarian looks at the world from his own perspective with little regard to the interrelationships of everything around him.

It's cafeteria politics. Republicans say some good things and bad things. Hmmm...I'll take the good things, thanks. Same for Dems. Trouble is, in the real world, to make something good in one area you have to sacrifice something in another area. Libertarians are either unwilling or incapable of facing this obvious fact and are essentially living in a dream world.

They want to have their cake and eat it too.

An anarcho-capitalist OTOH is such a nutjob that he may actually be on to something... [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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So by this theory Libertarians wouldn't vote at all... right?

They would just accept whatever good came out of the "default" system and ignore the rest.

I'm not being difficult I'm just confussed.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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I'm not entirely sure what you base these claims on. Can you cite some specific policy differences you have with libraterians.

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One that comes to mind immediately is drugs:

The libertarian position is that people should be free to use drugs as they please, they should be widely available etc. Yet they also believe that a strong economy and high GDP is a good thing.

The conservative position is that a strong economy is so important that drugs must be restricted because drug use impedes economic activity.

I claim that the conservatives are correct because the same people who use the drugs also drive the economy, and that more drugs means less efficiency, less productivity, more social problems, etc. You have to choose one or the other, but you can't have both.

In a nutshell...

Liberals: Let's do drugs and be happy, screw the economy.

My comment: You're not my type but at least you're logically consistent.

Conservatives: The economy must be strong so don't do drugs.

My comment: Right on, dude, you know the score.

Libertarians: Let's do drugs if we want but still make a strong economy.

My comment: OK fine, gimme that quadruple scoop hot fudge sundae but sign me up for weight watchers with a money-back guarantee! And don't forget to take out the no-sundae clause!

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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My comment: OK fine, gimme that quadruple scoop hot fudge sundae but sign me up for weight watchers with a money-back guarantee! And don't forget to take out the no-sundae clause!

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No joke... it's like bi-sexuals... i have no problem with anyone being gay or straight... but bi-sexuals are just greedy. Get off the fence and choose a side.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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So by this theory Libertarians wouldn't vote at all... right?

They would just accept whatever good came out of the "default" system and ignore the rest.

I'm not being difficult I'm just confussed.

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Something like that. There would be no reason for a pure libertarian to favor Republicans or Democrats. Unless there is a libertarian candidate it would make no sense for a pure libertarian to vote IMO.

Of course you could argue that there is no such thing as a pure anything in the real world so there will always be some bias in one direction or another.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

The same case was made about alcohol in the 1920s. Prohibition was passed and was a miserable failure repealed a decade later. Prohibition didn't stop or impede alcohol consumption. However, it did create organized crime and caused other immense social ills. Al Capone was a bootleger first and a mobster second.

Similair cases are made today for other drugs and activities such as prostitution. However, there is ample evidence that making them illegal doesn't cut down on them or improve social conditions. Prostitution, like pot, is legal in the netherlands and it hasn't destroyed society. In fact, because prostitution is legal it is regulated and womens safety and health is more carefully looked after. Here they have to do it in dark, dirty, filthy places under constant threat of diseas and violence.

Laws that make something illegal don't get rid of it. They don't reduce demand. Demand remains the same and supply goes down, creating huge price increases. The immense profit potential combined with the fact it's illegal creates and expands the criminal element. Without drugs, inner city gangs and turf warfare would not be nearly as bad as it is today.

In addition, to fight the drug war law enforcement is given huge extentions of power, further limiting our civil rights.

Do a simply cost benefit analysis of the policy:

Benefit:
1) ???

Cost:
1) Crime
2) Lack of Regulation
3) Loss of Civil Liberties

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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And... I'm a libertarian... [but I'm forced (to) pretty much vote democrat party lines]

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I can clear it up. I'm a libertarian ... but I'm forced to pretty much vote Republican party lines.

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No, I can clear it up. I'm a libertarian ... and I'm forced to pretty much vote Libertarian party lines.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I didn't read through it, so I have no clue if I agree with everything there. A lot of libraterians disagree on what the role of government should be. PVN might say that the government shouldn't fund public education, while I would say it should fund it through vouchers but not manage the schools or thier curriculums.

Anyway:
http://www.lp.org/issues/issues.shtml

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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Prostitution, like pot, is legal in the netherlands and it hasn't destroyed society. In fact, because prostitution is legal it is regulated and womens safety and health is more carefully looked after. Here they have to do it in dark, dirty, filthy places under constant threat of diseas and violence.

Laws that make something illegal don't get rid of it. They don't reduce demand. Demand remains the same and supply goes down, creating huge price increases.

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Aha! So Libertarians are for cheap drugs and hookers! Now that's a cause I can get behind! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

Slavery had benefits to the economy too. So let's bring it back! Screw individual rights and choice!

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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Aha! So Libertarians are for cheap drugs and hookers! Now that's a cause I can get behind!

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You forgot free trade and hookers! No, wait. You got the hookers, nevermind.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

I agree that prohibition was a disaster and that simple banning is not the answer but there are two very different questions here:

1) What should be achieved?

and

2) How should it be achieved?

My post deals with how the various parties see question 1) while you seem to be saying that if you don't have a good answer for 2) then that means you have to change your views on 1)

I'll be the first to admit that effectively curtailing drug use is a very difficult proposition, and I'm not sure at all what's the best way to go about it. There may be some minimax type solution in which granting some concessions, using the power of taxation etc., making drugs legal but under heavily controlled conditions would result in minimal drug use overall.

But that wasn't the original point. The original point is what is desirable in the first place. Establish that first and then get into the implementation methods.

Besides, a true libertarian would be dishonest to say it's too hard to implement and so let's just give in and allow it. That would be saying he's against drugs, would like to find a way to curtail them, but can't, which isn't true. The truth is he's not against drugs in the first place because he believes in personal freedom in all areas.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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The original point is what is desirable in the first place. Establish that first and then get into the implementation methods.

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Desirable to whom? I'm sure there are people out there who would prefer drugs over "a strong economy."

Your main argument in favor of keeping drugs illegal seems to be that it would hurt the economy if things were otherwise. The economy is run by people, and those people don't exist to serve you.

For someone who seems so pro-freedom, your position on drugs really confuses me.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

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Benefit:
1) ???

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The main benefit (to those that enact such rules) is that they get to tell everyone else what to do.

Cost Benefit
 

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I'll be the first to admit that effectively curtailing drug use is a very difficult proposition, and I'm not sure at all what's the best way to go about it. There may be some minimax type solution in which granting some concessions, using the power of taxation etc., making drugs legal but under heavily controlled conditions would result in minimal drug use overall.

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Perhaps. That works in Holland and elsewhere. One of the benefits of legalizing it is being able to regulate it somewhat. You can even make a free market arguement that drug addiction and use has external costs that must be internalized through taxes or regulations etc.

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But that wasn't the original point. The original point is what is desirable in the first place. Establish that first and then get into the implementation methods.

Besides, a true libertarian would be dishonest to say it's too hard to implement and so let's just give in and allow it. That would be saying he's against drugs, would like to find a way to curtail them, but can't, which isn't true. The truth is he's not against drugs in the first place because he believes in personal freedom in all areas.

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Some libraterians believe that. PVN certainly does. Personal liberty has such a high price tag that it overides other considerations. So thier cost benefit analysis ends if liberty is at any point infringed.

Some like myself think that a lot of things are bad, but that government intervention is worse. I do a cost benefit of individual policies and often come to conclusion the intervention isn't good.

For instance I think poverty is a bad thing, but that high taxes and a welfare state make it worse rather better. The arguement isn't so much with the goal of eliminating poverty as that the government can't do it correctly.

My cost benefit analysis happens to come up Libraterian 95% of the time, so I call myself a Libraterian. It isn't based on a bedrock philisophical principle like personal liberty (though I value it highly). That is why I often see areas for government, such as the public funding of education (but not the administration of the education), the maintaining of courts and police, and other limited functions.

And yes, sometimes your against something, but you acknowledge that the societal cost of enforcement far outways the benefit that *may* come from trying to change the thing you dislike. In fact, this is the entire basis for law in our society. Law is based on a cost benefit analysis of how policy will effect society as a whole. Thusly, if the drug war fails that cost benefit analysis then it must be ended even if one doesn't like the negative effects of drug use.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

A case could be made that drug adiction has an adverse effect even on those that don't take the drug, and therefore an externality exists.

However, current law only makes that externality worse therefore making it bad policy.

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

Even with all their faults, I'd vote for Bush, take two showers and cry myself to sleep. Four showers and a two gallon tub of Hagen-daas if I voted for Kerry.

Cody

Re: WTF is a real Libertarian?
 

given the patriot act, it is literally impossible for a true libertarian to support Bush or vote Republican.