School Privatization
 

There's lots of talk from the right about abolishing or curtailing the public school system and moving towards vouchers, choice, privatization, etc. These are all valid points, even though I don't really agree with them as I think public schools are important. But here's my question: are there very many on the right, at least those on the right that frequent this forum, that would do away with publicly funded education altogether, even if it was privately administered? In other words, no vouchers at all, just every child and family for themselves. I would like to think there's few that take this position, because I can't see punishing young children for the mistakes/laziness of their parents by not giving the kids some form of taxpayer funded education.

Re: School Privatization
 

I'm sure there are, but I'm not one of them.

Re: School Privatization
 

I'm one of those people.

I believe that no one has a right to an education, because this "right" lays a claim on other people who are then forced to provide you with it.

The idea of a public school system was first really developed in the Communist Manifesto. It is at heart a communist idea. The state forces children to go to a government run school, and then forces everyone to pay for it. If you don't have a kid, you still have to pay for the education of other people's children. If you want to homeschool your child, then that opens a whole new can of worms, (I'm not sure exactly what you need to go through for this, perhaps someone else could elaborate).

Don't get me wrong. I think education is very important. But I also believe that not only is it unjust to force taxpayers to pay for other people's kids, but the state of public schools are so terrible that they can hardly be thought of as providing an education to begin with.

Re: School Privatization
 

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I'm with him...

But I'm skeptical about it ever becoming a reality because the purpose of schooling is to keep kids from causing havoc in their neighborhoods, or even worse, against the socio-economic system itself.

Learning is the main goal up to the level of the 3 R's but after that it's basically a glorified low security correctional facility with mandatory brainwashing sessions.

Re: School Privatization
 

The true goal of school Vouchers is NOT the total privatization of the school system. The goal is to have the same amount of public dollars being fed into the system... but at the discretion of parents (i.e. the person in the childs life who knows best).

The best arguement I've heard supporting vouchers actually has nothing to do with education... but with parent involvement.

One thing I like about vouchers is that parents "could" be more pro-active in helping children obtain a better education.

P.S. I hate that people my age with two kids they can barely afford get tax CREDITS, while 7% of my federal and 22% of my state taxes are already going towards paying for schools and other related services for THEIR kids.

Re: School Privatization
 

OP is not talking about vouchers. He's talking aobut no federal funding at all.

Re: School Privatization
 

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The idea of a public school system was first really developed in the Communist Manifesto.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you guys come up with this? Is there a right-wing blog somewhere spreading this kind of nonsense? Are you just making it up? Have you ever heard of the Common School Movement? If not, I'm almost positive some of you went to an elementary school (or a junior high, or a high school) whose namesake was 'Horace Mann' - or perhaps you've merely heard of schools with the namesake of 'Horace Mann' - did you ever stop and consider what he's famous for, and when he lived/worked? Try this:

Google "Horace Mann + Massachusetts board of education + 1839"

Then Google "Communist Manifesto + 1848"

I'm honestly very curious how stuff like "the idea of a public school system was first really developed in the Communist Manifesto" gets said with a straight face.

Re: School Privatization
 

So what does this have to do with the topic of school privatization?

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
So what does this have to do with the topic of school privatization?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I just read things in posts and think to myself "WTF? Is this a joke?!"

9 times out of 10, it doesn't seem to be a joke - anyway, that "WTF?" kind of confusion/astonishment was what I was feeling when I read edthayer's post.

But anyway, to answer your question, it's not particularly relevant, except that edthayer tried to support his notion that public schools are unjust because they're 'first really developed in the Communist Manifesto' - which is factual lunacy. And another poster echoed edthayer thoughts, saying 'I'm with him', which apparently means edthayer isn't alone in his historical ignorance.

Re: School Privatization
 

No, to me it sounds like public schools are unjust because he doesn't have children or his children go to private school - so he's on the hook for money he shouldn't be paying.

So I suggest eradicating public schools and letting everyone pay for private schools - the underclass will just be completely uneducated instead of undereducated. Sounds like a pleasant place to live.

Re: School Privatization
 

Believe it or not, America had a 90% literacy rate before there were any public schools. I think that in this day and age, it might be harder to get that kind of success so we probably need some kind of free education for all, but the state-run version we have now is a farce.

To quote Milton Friedman:

[ QUOTE ]
If one were to seek deliberately to devise a system of recruiting and paying teachers calculated to repel the imaginative and daring and self-confident and to attract the dull and mediocre and uninspiring, he could hardly do better than imitate the system of requiring teaching certificates and enforcing standard salary structures that has developed in the largest city and state-wide systems.

[/ QUOTE ]

natedogg

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you guys come up with this? Is there a right-wing blog somewhere spreading this kind of nonsense? Are you just making it up? Have you ever heard of the Common School Movement? If not, I'm almost positive some of you went to an elementary school (or a junior high, or a high school) whose namesake was 'Horace Mann' - or perhaps you've merely heard of schools with the namesake of 'Horace Mann' - did you ever stop and consider what he's famous for, and when he lived/worked? Try this:

Google "Horace Mann + Massachusetts board of education + 1839"

Then Google "Communist Manifesto + 1848"

I'm honestly very curious how stuff like "the idea of a public school system was first really developed in the Communist Manifesto" gets said with a straight face.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand corrected.

Nevertheless, the idea of public schooling was embraced by communists, because it is a communist idea. Whether or not communists actually came up with the idea, it's still a bad idea for reasons I've already mentioned.

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
Believe it or not, America had a 90% literacy rate before there were any public schools

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't believe it.

Re: School Privatization
 

I dont either.

Re: School Privatization
 

post-posting search results:

1870's - 1979 illiteracy statistics

Re: School Privatization
 

I just thought I'd throw in my .02 on this matter since I haven't been slumming it in the politics forum lately.

The federal government exists to force people to do that which they either cannot or will not do on their own. To wit, speed limits exist for a couple of reasons. The first is safety, the second is economy. Without government enforced speed limits, a libertarian might argue, an "equilibrium" speed limit would be found. We all know, of course, that this line of reasoning is bogus. We, as a society force eachother to drive at (or around ;-) a certain speed for everyone's safety, not because we are concerned that the guy doing 104 in the right lane is going to kill himself. The line of reasoning follows for a ridiculous number of laws, from mandatory seatbelt regulations to the prohibition of certain substances. In many cases, the government "gets it wrong"(tm) as could be argue for a number of narcotics. But the purpose of the federal government's role in regulation is clear, that is - to protect us from ourselves, as much as you may disagree with it.

The other extremely important focus of the federal government is the development of capital (not "money" capital). In this regard, we task the government with the building of roads, bridges, performing research and yes, maintaining our schools. The reasons are two fold. First and foremost, we have the government perform these tasks because, in certain cases like the above, it is the most efficient mechanism for doing so.

The second reason we task the government with the development of capital is because we are unable to make certain decisions as well as we should. In reference the the above point, we know that we should not speed. Why do we do so? People know that they should not smoke cigarettes. Why do they take their first puff? Because part of the human condition is to make dumb decisions for whatever reason. Hell, I got a B on a sociology final I never studied for by asking myself after reading each question "What is the dumbest thing a group of people could do in this situation?"

So why do we task the government with providing public schools without choice? Because, while it makes economic, we know that a school should not be run based on what the parents want their kids to be taught. We as a society have agreed that education cannot be a simple voucher-based popularity contest in which the school that teaches what's en vogue gets the money. What do we do with vouchers when schools start pandering to the "intelligent design" demographic? What do we do with vouchers when schools eliminate the arts and sciences because parents don't find value in that? The answer is obvious. We move from a well rounded curriculum that may be broken to a quarterback-cum-prom king scholastic system that is most certainly worse. Society has said that they wish for the government, just as in speed regulations, the FDA, EPA, or one of a hundred other examples to help force us to that which we should be able to do on our own (in this case, what is right for our children) but are unable to do without the proverbial stick.

-A

Don't ever hire a libertarian plumber. He'll take one look at your leaky faucet and say you need a new house.

Re: School Privatization
 

What's communist about it?

Re: School Privatization
 

Communism is about getting everyone to be totally subservient to the system, ignoring any personal goals that might conflict with it.

The public school system is the first and most important way in which the child's mind is moulded to make him into a good robot.

You Americans think you are free and that you have capitalism at the moment, but as soon as you introduced progressive taxation, equal rights laws for minorities and homosexuals, and rampant feminism, you quickly became a glorified version of Marx's original dream but with more money and toys to play with while you unwittingly give up your priniciples and true aspirations in obedient
submission.

The really scary part is that your economic well-being (the only thing making your current situation better than true Marxist communism) is only an illusion because it's based on unbacked worthless paper currency and enormous debt. It's a big house of cards waiting to collapse.

You guys are living the communist dream right now and most of you are blissfully unaware.

Re: School Privatization
 

Your post assumes values which I disagree with, but rather than elaborate on those I'd just like to point out that in Germany and Hungary there are no effective speed limits on super-highways. Techinically there is in that the letter of the law says there is, but it is never enforced, except in construction or other reduced-speed areas, and everyone knows it.

If you drive 150 miles on a super-highway in either country it is 98% certain you will be passed by a high-speed car whose limiting factor is its own engineering and not the laws of the State.

Europeans are MUCH more courteous on the roads and show more skill in driving and if anything there is a negative correlation with the strictness of laws because over here both the laws and their enforcement are quite lax.

Re: School Privatization
 

psst, I'm Swedish.

And you seem a bit hysterical about the issue.

If education is the first step to communism, is the first step to capitalism ignorance? I'd be willing to hear out that argument, but it's somewhat controversial.

Re: School Privatization
 

I'm not even going to get into most of the stuff you said, but onto education.

Ireland, The Netherlands, Japan, Hong Kong, China, Sweden, and several other countries have school choice programs. In some of those countries government funded private schools make up a large part of education resources. In other cases it is a competition between public run schools. Are we to believe that only American parents are too stupid to educate thier own children, and that parents of these countries are more intelligent and can therefore be trusted to do the right thing? And by what measure do we determine this?

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
Without government enforced speed limits, a libertarian might argue, an "equilibrium" speed limit would be found. We all know, of course, that this line of reasoning is bogus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's bogus. The owner of the road has the right to set terms of its use. The libertarian would argue that the government shouldn't be in the road-owning business.

Re: School Privatization
 

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If education is the first step to communism, is the first step to capitalism ignorance?

[/ QUOTE ]

public education. Nice try.

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
but as soon as you introduced...rampant feminism, you quickly became a glorified version of Marx's original dream

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, I wonder why I read this board at all. And then a gem like this comes along.

Re: School Privatization
 

Ok, so please give me a coherent argument why public education is the first step towards communism.

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
psst, I'm Swedish.


[/ QUOTE ]

My apologies...I guess I should have written it in the 3rd person then. I'm also sobering up so maybe my hysteria level will subside as well...

Education does not lead to communism unless it's mandatory and run by a central authority IMO.

A capitalist's idea of education is everyone educates their kids according to standards and values that they themselves choose, paying whatever price the market assigns to his choice. If the choice is no formal education then so be it. If the choice is something not currently on offer, he would be free to hire teachers himself, teach his kids whatever he felt necessary and that would be that.

Ignorance does not lead to success under any system IMO.

Re: School Privatization
 

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A capitalist's idea of education is everyone educates their kids according to standards and values that they themselves choose, paying whatever price the market assigns to his choice. If the choice is no formal education then so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This reads like a recipe to creating a caste system.

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
You Americans think you are free and that you have capitalism at the moment, but as soon as you introduced progressive taxation, equal rights laws for minorities and homosexuals, and rampant feminism, you quickly became a glorified version of Marx's original dream but with more money and toys to play with while you unwittingly give up your priniciples and true aspirations in obedient
submission.


[/ QUOTE ]

The wolf's sharp teeth gleamed from beneath his fleece as he licked his lips, MMMMMM I think I'll have lamb tonight, he muttered.

You should be proud of your Nazi roots.

Yuck Mack

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
My apologies

[/ QUOTE ]
No worries [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
A capitalist's idea of education is everyone educates their kids according to standards and values that they themselves choose

[/ QUOTE ]
I dunno. Why is it necessarily a capitalist idea that a kid who has the misfortune of being born by the wrong parents or whatnot must suffer the consequences and not get a good education? Is the child the property of the parents or does society as a whole have reasons to make sure each child gets a reasonable education?

Re: School Privatization
 

I suppose that could be one of the outcomes but I think you'd get a pretty nice price on it from a bookmaker.

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so please give me a coherent argument why public education is the first step towards communism.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, it wasn't my argument. I do know that he was specifically talking about public schooling, and you specifically left that detail out to help your argument.

Public schooling IS a vital element of any government's self-perpetuation. The government has a vested interest in indoctrinating the population into accepting its dominance. I don't see it specifically limited to Communism.

Re: School Privatization
 

Parents have a great deal more insight and experience in raising thier kids and knowing the specific needs and methods they best respond too. This allows for a more individualized, and I would posit more effective, method of education then the one size fits all beauracratic method.

Of course, one could be even more cynical and note that parents have a much higher vested interest in thier child doing well, while most people in the education profession couldn't give a flying f-uck because they have tenure.

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is the child the property of the parents or does society as a whole have reasons to make sure each child gets a reasonable education?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that's the crux of the whole debate.

If we imagine a purely capitalist world and I see a family such as the one you described, ie. parents totally neglecting the kids etc., then I'd be concerned somewhat because those kids are likely to pose a danger to me and my family down the road. Chances are others will feel the same.

So what do we do? We would probably need to pool our money somehow and use force against such families, but how? Do we kidnap their kids and brainwash them to become our slaves (the current system)? Do we blackmail the parents and threaten them with physical violence if they don't educate their kids in ways we agree with (almost the current system)? Or do we just sit by and let them develop into dangerous teenagers (probably) and wait until they pose an imminent threat to us before we take action (via a private security force we have a contract with)?

I vote for the last one because

1) We can't be 100% sure they will pose a real danger. Maybe they will figure out on their own it's not advantageous to mess with a professional security force and find some other way to live without causing havoc.

2) While the only thing we have on them is a semi-paranoid (IMO) fear of what they might do later, we don't have the right to infringe on their lives. Even if in our value system they may be living their lives the wrong way, it is not for us to judge that. We only have that right when we are directly affected IMO.

3) Their own circle may come up with a solution, ie. a relative may enter into conflict with the parents and kidnap the child for the child's benefit, say. A lot of mothers and mother-in-laws would like to do that in a lot of circumstances today if not for the laws that prevent them. If the kid suffers from that then he may take it out on the mother-in-law and not on society at large, leaving us more secure at zero cost.

4) Private people with their own ingenuity acting in their own interests may come up with an answer none of us have thought of.

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idea of a public school system was first really developed in the Communist Manifesto.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you guys come up with this? Is there a right-wing blog somewhere spreading this kind of nonsense? Are you just making it up? Have you ever heard of the Common School Movement? If not, I'm almost positive some of you went to an elementary school (or a junior high, or a high school) whose namesake was 'Horace Mann' - or perhaps you've merely heard of schools with the namesake of 'Horace Mann' - did you ever stop and consider what he's famous for, and when he lived/worked? Try this:

Google "Horace Mann + Massachusetts board of education + 1839"

Then Google "Communist Manifesto + 1848"

I'm honestly very curious how stuff like "the idea of a public school system was first really developed in the Communist Manifesto" gets said with a straight face.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think the guy wrote what he was trying to say poorly. Basically, the idea is that if you have a Centralized Education Department that can basically control what people learn, you can keep the population under control. Hell, look at North Korea, their children are taught that the US invaded them, and they fought us off by themselves or some nonsense. I don't even know for sure if the fact that China put about a million troops into NK is even told to their children.

The idea behind the Communist Manifesto, and indeed liberal policy in this country, is that if you control what people learn, you control the people.

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For once we agree [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: School Privatization
 

I think you and I pretty much agree here. I have nothing against parents having a choice in where to educate their kids. I do have a problem if parents are allowed to stop their kids from getting any education, or if schools are allowed to teach anything. I belive there is a need for some sort of control mechanism to make sure everyone gets a decent level of education in a broad spectrum of subjects.

Re: School Privatization
 

I find that when you allow government to set the curriculum, you end up with a neutered and disfunctional curriculum. It becomes more and more disfunctional the farther away from the classroom that the curriculum is formulated. School districts that are given more control over thier own curriculum have proven to do much better then those where the curriculum is dictated by the state. Even in countries like Ireland or Hong Kong, where religous schools recieve government funding and teach a large portion of the populace you don't end up with a bunch of religous nuts. I think parents will do a much better job of regulating this then you think.

Lastly, if a kid has bad parents they are screwed. It really doesn't matter what you do for them, they're screwed. My mom tried to get this one smart girl into a nice school downtown. All the parents had to do was go downtown and sign some paperwork. They wouldn't even take the time. Thier daughter is screwed, and there's nothing you can do to help her.

Re: School Privatization
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thier daughter is screwed, and there's nothing you can do to help her.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's where we disagree. She's screwed, but we can provide here with a decent public education --- despite her shitty parents.

Re: School Privatization
 

My mom deals with these cases everyday. If you really have parents that bad, unless child services takes them away (which happens alot) the kid is pretty screwed.

Money is a problem you can solve. You can provide funding for education. However, if parents are completely opposed to thier child getting an education (I can't imagine why but whatever) then they aren't going to be able to. You can make the kid go to school, but if they have no support or even hinderance from thier parents the odds are slim.

Moreover, the policies you enact to try help these kids end up screwing the vast majority that has remotely decent parents while generating little additional benefit if any for the less fortunate.

If someone has poor but dedicated parents they can make it. If they have poor parents that don't give a [censored] it's going to take more then compulsary schooling to save them.

Re: School Privatization
 

pvn, I was hoping you'd respond to my original question since I'm curious how a strong libertarian view the issue (I assume you are one from reading many of your posts). Are you OK with tax dollars going into educating children so long as the provision of the education is private, or do you feel otherwise.