Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

30/60 Party, 10 handed

2 folds and a loose player raises (60/9), the guy to his left 3-bets (33/14 but only after 40 hands, his postflop aggression factors are 2; 5; 4 for what that's worth), the next one cold call (30/15 again 40 hands), SB calls (23/13) and I call with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Good or bad?

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to the 3-bettor and he bets out, 2 calls and I call, PFR folds. Good or bad?

Turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Same guy bets out again, preflop cold caller folds, SB calls and I call. Good or bad?

River: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He bets out again, SB folds, I fold. Good or bad?

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

[ QUOTE ]
30/60 Party, 10 handed

2 folds and a loose player raises (60/9), the guy to his left 3-bets (33/14 but only after 40 hands, his postflop aggression factors are 2; 5; 4 for what that's worth), the next one cold call (30/15 again 40 hands), SB calls (23/13) and I call with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Good or bad?

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to the 3-bettor and he bets out, 2 calls and I call, PFR folds. Good or bad?

Turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Same guy bets out again, preflop cold caller folds, SB calls and I call. Good or bad?

River: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He bets out again, SB folds, I fold. Good or bad?

Thanks,

Guido

[/ QUOTE ]

River fold, imo, is horrible. I think you need to lead or c/r flop.

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

What hands 3-bet preflop, bet the flop and turn (in a multiway pot) do you beat on the river in your opinion? Why is it horrible?

Can you also explain why you think you should lead or c/r the flop?

Just saying what you would do, won't really help me. I want to know why you think some actions are best.

Thanks for your reply,

Guido

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What hands 3-bet preflop, bet the flop and turn (in a multiway pot) do you beat on the river in your opinion? Why is it horrible?

Can you also explain why you think you should lead or c/r the flop?

Just saying what you would do, won't really help me. I want to know why you think some actions are best.

Thanks for your reply,

Guido

[/ QUOTE ]


Ya, heres the thing, I dont know why. I was actually trying to contemplate it, for the last few minutes, but looking at your hand Im thinking WTF, thats all around horrible, but I dont know why Im thinking that......

Let me get back to you in about 10 minutes, as Im really interested in discussing this because it would be a hand Id have trouble with, but I have to think about it a bit.

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

heres my thought process:

I think check raising the flop, may help to define his hand a little better (beacuse even though the sample size is tiny, he seems loose). If he calls the flop c/r, Id lead turn, and fold to a raise. If he 3 bets the flop, I call, and then check/fold the turn (unless you had odds for the 4 outer there, I foget), and then check/fold the river. Id be able to sleep a little more sound my way, but I dunnoooooo.....nh

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

tough spot.

preflop is def a call.

now on the flop I think you need to really find out where you are at in this hand so that you can get away from this hand.

Two really important factors play in this hand I think

a) preflop 3bettor could be on a isolation raise.
b) preflop 3bettor who leads on the flop is very aggressive postflop even though its 40 hands he is still on the agressive side.

I would checkraise the flop to see where you are at with this hand early, if you get 3betted on that flop from the 3bettor with 2 other callers in its very safe to say your behind and drawing to a runner runner.

on the turn I would check, whether the preflop raiser 3betted or not since K is another scarecard and does not improve your hand.

if 3bettor checks behind on turn I would lead the river, if he had bet the turn I would check/fold river knowing I was behind.

I think with the line you took it's a really tough fold on the river since you are getting 13.5:1 and pfr 3bettor has an aggression factor of 4 on the river which is extremly high meaning he's going to be betting a lot of hands here i.e. Axs.

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

Two really important factors play in this hand I think

a) preflop 3bettor could be on a isolation raise.
b) preflop 3bettor who leads on the flop is very aggressive postflop even though its 40 hands he is still on the agressive side.



I totally forgot to write that part down. Iwas thinking that too.

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

If you are going to lay this down to 1 bet after flopping top pair just fold preflop and be done with this.

Your river fold is silly.

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

This is a tough spot. pf call is mandatory. On the flop, its a tough spot because you have no way of protecting your hand. I like the cr here because:
1) the late position caller and the sb just called which tells me you're ahead of them at the moment
2) Like someone else said, it defines your hand. If you get 3 bet here...just dump it, no big deal. If you he just calls, lead the turn no matter what card comes in my opinion. If you are raised, you can bail. Its one of those situations where you're either way ahead or way behind. If they raise, you're almost guarenteed to be beat. If they call the turn, check call the river hoping to get worse hands to bet for you.

Either way, the fold on the river is definitely not the play you should have chosen per se...lol...i mean, given your line on this hand, checking and calling, what else were you hoping for? You played it like you were on a busted draw. I have to call this river and prey.

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

Again what hands can he play this way that I beat? He seems a little aggressive preflop but much more than TT he probably doesn't 3-bet here. So I only beat TT and JJ but do you think these hands will bet again on both turn and river? I thought I was behind after the turn and I only called to get my straight, when I didn't hit, I folded.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

If you're going to fold for one bet when a harmless river card comes, FOLD EARLIER IN THE HAND.

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to fold for one bet when a harmless river card comes, FOLD EARLIER IN THE HAND.

[/ QUOTE ]just because you are using CAPSLOCK doesnt make you right, DONKEY.

you played this hand fine, guido. i like the river fold... you are never good here. it can be tough to fold in these spots on the net, cause for all you know, this guy could be wasted playing his hand blind or something... nonetheless, i still dont think you have the pot odds here.

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to fold for one bet when a harmless river card comes, FOLD EARLIER IN THE HAND.

[/ QUOTE ]


That was my first thought too, but that K changes a little, so thats why I said what I said to begin with.

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

I my opinion both of those hands would bet the turn as well b/c they have picked up additional outs. IMO once you just called all the way... you need to call getting 13.5-1 on the end. The pyschological damage of laying down the best hand here could be great.

I do agree with you that there are not a lot of hands that someone who 3-bets preflop and continues to bet you can beat. However, here is another variable to consider... your history on this player is not all that great. Here is another reason to call on the end... you can add some more history to your knowledge of this opponent. The fact that he appears to be tight and aggressive through 40 hands is not going to get me to lay down top pair when you have put no pressure on him at all throughout the play of the hand.

The end is a must call!

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

[ QUOTE ]
heres my thought process:

I think check raising the flop, may help to define his hand a little better (beacuse even though the sample size is tiny, he seems loose). If he calls the flop c/r, Id lead turn, and fold to a raise. If he 3 bets the flop, I call, and then check/fold the turn (unless you had odds for the 4 outer there, I foget), and then check/fold the river. Id be able to sleep a little more sound my way, but I dunnoooooo.....nh

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to jump in here...ok yeah I do. Isn't this one of those spots where you're either way ahead or way behind in the flop. Seems to me like if hero's behind he's got 3 outs (at best), and if he's ahead villian has 2 outs. This is a common spot for misplaced aggression, we don't want to define our hand for him, and give him a chance to play correctly.

IMO the flop and turn are good. I'd lead the river, given that hero checked I think you have to call. The pot is huge, and granted there aren't any hands that a "reasonable" player bets again on the river (except for a total bluff), but we don't know that he's reasonable. Combine that with the fact that you never gave villian reason to think you had an Ace he might be making a hopeless bluff or a really thin value bet.

Given the way you played the flop/turn, the river is a must call, IMO.

lf

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

[ QUOTE ]
30/60 Party, 10 handed

2 folds and a loose player raises (60/9), the guy to his left 3-bets (33/14 but only after 40 hands, his postflop aggression factors are 2; 5; 4 for what that's worth), the next one cold call (30/15 again 40 hands), SB calls (23/13) and I call with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Good or bad?

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to the 3-bettor and he bets out, 2 calls and I call, PFR folds. Good or bad?

Turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Same guy bets out again, preflop cold caller folds, SB calls and I call. Good or bad?

River: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He bets out again, SB folds, I fold. Good or bad?

Thanks,

Guido

[/ QUOTE ]

good to see you posting again Guido (I haven't been posting much either lately...kind of sick of the whole 2+2 thing).

You played this hand fine. Preflop is marginal but you are getting about 7:1 and that is just good enough with your hand.

On the flop first I thought about check-raising, but now I realize it would be terrible - it wouldn't defend your hand in the slightest and you are opening yourself up to be raised on the turn by BOTH hands that beat you and stubborn big pairs that don't.

Then I thought maybe betting out would be best, but that would accomplish very little - all the better hands are raising you, TT and under are flat out folding, or flatcalling hoping to improve (and thereby you are not protecting your hand). The only real hand you beat that might raise is something like KQs or KK which is not often enough to warrant a bet.

I prefer a check because if he has a small pair, he may give up and just check, in which case a late position bettor may bet and you can raise to protect now. If miraculously you check he bets and the others fold, I think it would be time to go for a check-call check-call bet line, UNTIL the turn and river bring what they did.

On the turn, as you said, you are either against a small pair that is quite stubborn (that will check behind the river 95% of the time unimproved), or a hand that has you crushed aside from the gutshot. Betting out accomplishes nothing unless he has exactly JJ (extremely unlikely) or TT - as he will either fold right away with very few outs (hence it is not bad to give a free card here), or he will bluff raise you and you will just have to pay more or fold the best hand. Obviously he will raise all the hands that beat you as well.

On the river, you are done, you have nothing, fold. Good fold. This is a fold very few 2+2ers can make. THE ONLY HAND he could possibly have here that you beat is AT. He will NOT bet anything else with two seperate people calling him down. Maybe if it was heads up - he would give one last desperation bet - but not 3 handed.

By the way, his street-specific aggression factor is worthless over that many hands. Even his overall postflop aggression is almost worthless too. Small sample size.



-DrG

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

how many combinations of at could he have
how many combinations of aj could he have
how many combinations of hands beat him
what are his pot odds
his pot odds are big

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

What % of the time do you guys think my hand is still good? Just saying that I have to call because the pot is huge, isn't enough.

Personally I don't think I'm good here even 5% of the time.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

Bad, if you cal the turn, call the river... top pair good kicker... he could have fired the last barrel with spades or an A with weaker kicker, T?

Re: Because I\'m a little rusty... Good or bad?
 

if you cal the turn, call the river

Why do a lot of you guys say that? I called the turn because of my gutshot and since I didn't hit on the river it was a fold. I agree that the play you suggest is right in general but not always. I think this is one of them.

If the turn wasn't a king I might have bet out on the turn myself.

Thanks,

Guido

How about this one?
 

Asume no reads...

Party Poker (9 handed)

Preflop: Guido is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Obviously I raise, UTG+2 3-bets, button caps, we both call.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Button bets out, I call, UTG+2 raises and we both call.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+2 bets out and we both call.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+2 bets, button folds, I fold.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Guido