Question for Libertarians
 

Something I've always wondered but never seen answered. I know that libertarians think highways and major roads should be built with toll money or some other user-pays system. But what about local streets that run in front of all our houses. Would their existence be based on tolls? What if you neighbor doesn't agree to pay a toll. Do you have a little fifty foot stretch of road that goes nowhere?

Re: Question for Libertarians
 

I consider myself a libraterian, and I still see a role for government in transportation. It really depends who you talk to.

Re: Question for Libertarians
 

I agree with Lehigh. Libertarians are not anarchists, and certainly see a role for the government. Pooling our funds to make public roads is, perhaps, one tax I would be in favor of...not to say I have a problem with toll roads(I drive one everyday, and it's much faster, cleaner, and nicer than the public one).

Regarding the problem you present...I doubt that you'd have everyone owning the little section of road in front of their house. Most likely, you'd see a new type of company emerge: road management firms...and my guess would be they'd work like the power company, the water company, and so forth.

I dunno, though...lots of problems to get around with that one. I think the free public roads are actually a decent use for government.

Free public schools, however, are not...but that's another thread.

Re: Question for Libertarians
 

There were some countries in Asia that do that. You have a special liscence plate determining which roads you can drive on, and they fine you if they catch you doing the wrong thing.

User Taxes
 

There should be a role for user taxes, where you can identify the people who use the services and how much/often they use it. Roads can be paid for with fuel taxes -- the more fuel a person consumes, the more they use the roads, the more they pay.

Re: Question for Libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
Something I've always wondered but never seen answered. I know that libertarians think highways and major roads should be built with toll money or some other user-pays system. But what about local streets that run in front of all our houses. Would their existence be based on tolls? What if you neighbor doesn't agree to pay a toll. Do you have a little fifty foot stretch of road that goes nowhere?

[/ QUOTE ]

From my POV the Federal Government is within its rights to build an interstate highway system. Mainly under the guise of regulation of interstate commerce. However, I think that most roads should be built and run by the state or by a private company under the employ of a state. Of course I also think that the individual localities should do the same as the states. Now, there is a problem that arises here, one similar to that of the problems the railroads had with gauging. There should be some standard developed on the Federal level with regards to what basic qualities a road should have. Individual states should also adopt similar regulations demanding that the localities follow their state guidlines.

Re: User Taxes
 

I'd be willing to listen to this argument. But it seems to go against a lot of current discussions here. If I have a big car I won't use the roads more than the guy with the small car, but I'll still pay more taxes for it?

Remember, I might agree with you here, but do you really agree with you?

Re: User Taxes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be willing to listen to this argument. But it seems to go against a lot of current discussions here. If I have a big car I won't use the roads more than the guy with the small car, but I'll still pay more taxes for it?

Remember, I might agree with you here, but do you really agree with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

The extra tax that the big car user pays can be justified because of the added pollution his car creates. Libertarians are generally anti-pollution, because pollution is an invasion of the rights of those who breathe it. Forcing polluters to pay tax because of the pollution they create is justifiable in a libertarian viewpoint.

Re: User Taxes
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I have a big car I won't use the roads more than the guy with the small car, but I'll still pay more taxes for it?

[/ QUOTE ]
A big car damages the roads more. Tractor trailers get 3MPG, and damage the road a lot. Motorcycles get 50MPG and damages the road little. It works out.

I'm not necessarily saying it should be run by the government. We have information highways that have been built with private funds and some oversight. The Internet and peering agreements would be a good model to use in highways -- in this case all roads are private, but if you want to connect your road to my road -- you have to agree to maintain some standards, etc. -- if you can use my road then I can use your road. The final reality being that a road which is not connected to all other roads is pretty useless, so everyone agrees. This way you can have a lot of private roads (the same as you have in gated communities), but everyone has access. As long as you are paying for the maintenance and upkeep on your street, you can use all roads.

Re: User Taxes
 

As I said, I might agree. But now you put pollution into the mix as well, so how do you know how much of the car tax-money that should go to pollution prevention and how much to roads?

Re: User Taxes
 

[ QUOTE ]
so how do you know how much of the car tax-money that should go to pollution prevention and how much to roads?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's one of the reasons these things should be taken care of by local communities who own their own roads, and address their common local concerns. Further down the thread I proposed a model.

Re: User Taxes
 

Except that the big backbones of the internet are not really privately own.

The problem for me is roads that only has a few users, in rural places and so on. The roads really are necessary, somehow the food has got to come from the farm to the consumer, but the farmer(s) can't really absorb the price of them.

Re: User Taxes
 

Like I said, I think one of two asian countries have a system like that. You buy special liscence plates that determine what roads you can drive on and when. I forget all of the details of the specific countries. You'll have to look it up yourself.

Re: User Taxes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Except that the big backbones of the internet are not really privately own.

The problem for me is roads that only has a few users, in rural places and so on. The roads really are necessary, somehow the food has got to come from the farm to the consumer, but the farmer(s) can't really absorb the price of them.

[/ QUOTE ]
The farms could absorb the price, because people have to eat. Farmers have voluntarily built some of the most successful cooperatives I've ever seen. It's the issue of backbone connections that leads me toward a fuel tax. My original point however, was that a fuel tax more equitably correlates use and cost -- and it can be avoided as a direct tax simply by not purchasing fuel.

Re: User Taxes
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem for me is roads that only has a few users, in rural places and so on. The roads really are necessary, somehow the food has got to come from the farm to the consumer, but the farmer(s) can't really absorb the price of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

People need roads and people need food. We'd figure out a way to get both. I don't want to give a specific answer because there are so many potential solutions to this problem.

Re: User Taxes
 

[ QUOTE ]
People need roads and people need food. We'd figure out a way to get both. I don't want to give a specific answer because there are so many potential solutions to this problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you can't give a specific answer is often cited as a weakness, but the point is that it doesn't matter what YOU think - the "correct" answer will arise naturally out of the competitive process. It doesn't require some bureaucrat to "bless" the right answer.

Too many people either A) can't imagine anything happening without a plan or B) are afraid of things happening without a plan. And by "plan" I mean a plan approved by some central authority figure.

Re: User Taxes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Except that the big backbones of the internet are not really privately own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this true? I'm pretty sure it's not true in the US anymore, but I don't know about Europe.

Re: User Taxes
 

I agree you don't need a plan for everything. The whole of Manhattan Island gets fed every day without any master plan. Free market conditions allow all those millions of people to eat without any government master plan (of course there are health regulations as a checks-and-balance system... thank god).

But I think the OP point was to assess the mind-set of the libertarian... and their views on Government involvement.

There is a great book (for the life of me I can't remember the name) about the auto-industry.

It takes a look at how the car lobby really screwed over America. Before cars (trains and trolleys) it was the manufactures responsible to provide the method of transportation: i.e. rail-lines, cables, ect.

But somehow... the car industry duped tax-payers into footing the bill.