Kudos to Ribbo
 

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ribmeister/


...You have to understand though that your PLO/8 tables have been utterly
watered down by for some reason starting NLO/8 tables.
In the forums I subscibe to, a lot of players just wont play NLO8 period.
It's a terrible game full of Americans who get two aces and refuse to see a
flop, instead shoving $100 into a $5 pot and somehow expecting a call.
I believe the opening of NLO/8 was counterproductive to your sites
popularity. As you know most of the action for PLO8 is at party poker, they
get a lot of games going including a lot of high limit games.
What makes your high limit games die is people playing NLO8. There has to be
"stepping stones" for new players without the bankroll to be able to build
up a bankroll to be able to play in these games. Because serious players
will not play NLO8 they do not get the opportunities they need to sit down
and play PLO8 regularily. I believe NLO8 simply puts new players off playing
big bet Omaha/8 because they will happily put all their chips in on a flop
where they have the nut straight, then wonder why they lost everything to
the guy with the freeroll flush draw and/or low draw.
The reason PLO8 is not popular with your site is twofold. One, you don't
promote it like you should. Two, you make the tables nine handed. This is
just terrible. I have taken many screenshots of tables where three people
will be sat out for one reason or another. The table goes six handed, then
everyone else refuses to play because they abhor shorthanded PLO/8. The
table dies, everyone leaves. I see it time and time again. You need to make
the games 10 handed to get the players back at the tables, else all the
action will firmly stay at Party Poker. Having played on Pokerstars since
the beta, and having almost exclusively played PLO8 for a living for the
last 3+ years I've spoken to an awful lot of players in those games. 9
handed games and NLO8 tables are the reason you are not running a PLO8
event. There is no other reason for the action being at Party Poker for
these games, since Pokerstars has much better software and a more generous
and easily obtained deposit bonus. (Although you could claim that because
you don't offer affiliate rakeback deals a lot of the pro's stick to Party,
but that's a different matter)

Edited
Another reason I am cpoying Ribbo's journal here is because I hope there will be enough responses here so that PS will give a shit about their dying PLO8 games, like Lee Jones once responded personally about PS's issue at another forum...

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

I sent an e-mail to PS as well echoing Ribbo's points. I think more should.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

Will do too.

I still don't understand why the hell PS is only offering 9-handed tables for PL & NL games. They can't handle the bets? (sw)

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

I agree about the 9-handed NL and PL tables. I don't see why limit games should be 10-handed but big bet games can only have 9 seats? As for PokerStar's No-Limit O8 games, well I agree it's a dumb betting structure for the game. Most good players realize that. However some people obviously enjoy playing NL. So let people play the game however they want to play it. It isn't PokerStar's job to tell people what games they should or should not play. On that issue, I think Ribbo's just sour that it's mainly fish that populate the NLO/8 tables, and he wants those players at his PLO/8 tables.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

10 games of 9 handed, as opposed to 9 games of 10 handed means $3 a hand more rake. It's pretty obvious why they want them 9 handed. It's just ironic that that very reason has caused them to lose atleast 50 regular players from their PLO8 games. That's considerably more than going ten handed.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

Am I the only one that would prefer all 6 max tables?

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that would prefer all 6 max tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

I struggle with 6-handed max, especially hold 'em, just because hand values change a lot. In 0/8 shorthanded, I definitely have been raising more with A4xx suited and A5xx suited (late position). Still, I prefer a big table.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

I disagree. You want games where players have an incentive to continue to play..and improve, be challenged and get a fair shake. Having people play a game where a vast number are bound to get frustrated and leave, in favor of a much richer game is not better for anyone. NL08 is like playing with wild cards, follow the queen... Anaconda, Baseball, etc. Sure people like these games, but they aren't good poker and are not optimal for developing players and retaining them.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that would prefer all 6 max tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Theres more varince than in a full handed game, also look what its done for PLO on party, its pretty much killed the 200 and 400 level. Theres usually 3 short handed tables at most and not even, would you rather see 3 short handed tables or 3 full handed tables? Seems like 3 full handed tables would be more profitable.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. You want games where players have an incentive to continue to play..and improve, be challenged and get a fair shake. Having people play a game where a vast number are bound to get frustrated and leave, in favor of a much richer game is not better for anyone. NL08 is like playing with wild cards, follow the queen... Anaconda, Baseball, etc. Sure people like these games, but they aren't good poker and are not optimal for developing players and retaining them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's a choice, good players will prefer to have plhe instead of nlhe. But it's nlhe that gets poker going. But I do agree that nlo8 should only be played at up to certain level,say $50 max buy-in (with $.25/$.50 blinds). Many players like to have FUN, they like to have some beers and poker after work, so why bothers with all the thinking and analyzing and brain-hurtting things in poker? So low-limit NLO8 should get them going and have fun. When they've enough funs and see pl tables with higher stakes, they will like to give it a shot. Then they move back to nlo8, and repeat.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

It isn't the poker site's responsibility to force people to learn to appreciate a particular type of game. People play poker for all sorts of different reasons. Recreational players do it for fun, and if enough of them wanted to play a game like Baseball, then I think the poker room should spread that game. Don't play NLO/8 if you don't like the game, but give people the choice. This argument is mostly over sour grapes by professional and semi-professional players who don't want to see fish playing a game that reduces the pro's edge. But that's their problem. It isn't the poker site's responsibility to ensure action for one particular game over another.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

Short-handed PLO8 kills poor players and makes them quit faster. It kills average NLH short-handed players too, aggression plays a less role in SH PLO8, IMHO.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that would prefer all 6 max tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Theres more varince than in a full handed game, also look what its done for PLO on party, its pretty much killed the 200 and 400 level. Theres usually 3 short handed tables at most and not even, would you rather see 3 short handed tables or 3 full handed tables? Seems like 3 full handed tables would be more profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you could get a seat just as easily at the short handed tables, they would be MUCH more profitable than the full ring games.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

next task, getting a 3rd man out rule put in

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

I wasn't making a case for the site's responsibility at all. I was making a case for what is best for the site over the long term. My point was that better games develop a player base that sticks around longer. All things being equal a better game attracts more players over the long haul than the short haul. IMHO PLO8 is such a game and NLO8 is not. So when a site offers a game with less development potential that competes for players with a game that has more development potential it may be giving the players what they want, but it is worse for business over the long haul. My evidence of this (besides my undertanding of the two games themselves) is that Stars Omaha base is declining (they offer NL tables) and Party's is increasing, (they offer only PL) the same holds true for UB. I think Stars NL08 is not growing any players for them.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Short-handed PLO8 kills poor players and makes them quit faster. It kills average NLH short-handed players too, aggression plays a less role in SH PLO8, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your evidence of this? Are you just regurgitating what you've read at Steve Badger's site about PLO8 and claiming it's more true for shorthanded, or do you ahve statistical evidence and such to back up a claim like that?

I ask because I disagree with you--many bad players prefere shorthanded, and never seem to quit, no matter how much they lose.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I ask because I disagree with you--many bad players prefere shorthanded, and never seem to quit, no matter how much they lose.

[/ QUOTE ]
If by bad you mean overly loose-aggressive then yes those players will do better playing shorthanded where the proper strategy for shorthanded play fits with their LAG style.

The other kind of fish, the loose-passive calling station player will get annihilated at all forms of big bet poker.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

What's wrong with wild card games?

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

I saw they were playing Indian Headband at the World Series last year.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

Hell, they don't play draw anymore, that doesn't mean it's not a good game.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Short-handed PLO8 kills poor players and makes them quit faster. It kills average NLH short-handed players too, aggression plays a less role in SH PLO8, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your evidence of this? Are you just regurgitating what you've read at Steve Badger's site about PLO8 and claiming it's more true for shorthanded, or do you ahve statistical evidence and such to back up a claim like that?

I ask because I disagree with you--many bad players prefere shorthanded, and never seem to quit, no matter how much they lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I don't recall Steve's web site mentioned anything about SH plo8 plays and I don't know what's his proposition on SH plo8 plays. In fact, I don't see any online articles/books mention anything about how to play SH PLO8.

2. I am not saying aggression isn't important in SH PLO8. In fact, aggression is as important as in any SH pokers (limit or big bet pokers). But what I am saying is, aggression is less important in PLO8 comparing to other big bet SH pokers. To me, position and starting hand are still the keys.

3. I don't have any hard statistics to prove my points. It really isn't the point. I played SH plo8 from $200 to $600 quite sometimes (and I knew you played up to $2000 and may be the plays are up to another level), but in my case, I've seen many players being overly aggressive. They preflop potted it a mojority of time with or without position. How did I play against them? I folded 90% of my hands oop, called about half of the time when I was in position and still I folded a lot on the flop. But it only took me one or two hands to break even, another one or two hands to break them. It's that simple.

4. I really don't see too many repeated SH plo8 losers (if you had good for you). For instance, I've played with a player "ADAMTHEEXPERT" once at $200, he bought in for $80 to play HU with me (the table later on expanded to 4-5 players), lost some and rebought to $200, lost some then out of no where he disappeared, and I've never seen him again, the list goes on...

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

For instance, I've played with a player "ADAMTHEEXPERT" once at $200

This has to be a joke!

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, I've played with a player "ADAMTHEEXPERT" once at $200

This has to be a joke!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to sound like a big blind defender. But it's not, if you are interested in, PM me so I will PM you the hand histories.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

I take it you have not read Adamtheexpert's (ATE) posts. I'd love to see those histories. The guy talks a great game (at least for full ring)

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

Check my PM.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

The sick Star Wars fan is correct. As a poker player, you make most of your money off of people with serious gambling problems. Those people will not usually have the patience for a full ring game.

Re: Kudos to Ribbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
The sick Star Wars fan is correct. As a poker player, you make most of your money off of people with serious gambling problems. Those people will not usually have the patience for a full ring game.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't, you make the most money off the idiots. People with gambling problems can still be intelligent enough to know how to play, I should know.