I get fancy and play bad
 

long time, no hand. the converter is weird/broken now, eh? anyways, villian in this hand is a pretty big donkey, and the table is very loose and aggro.

5-10 6 max, I'm (2k) in the bb with AhKd. villian (2k), opens for 30 in MP. folded to me and I call.

65 in the pot, and the flop is Ks 4s 5c. I bet 50, villian calls.

turn is 9c. I check, villian bets 120, I make it 400 straight, villian goes and gets a beer, watches a movie then finally calls.

the river is a Ts. there is 965 in the pot and we both have ~1500 left. what's my plan for this card?

--turnipmonster

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

I bet half-pot, fold if raised. Most flush-draws call the turn check-raise instantly, so I'm not very afraid of it.

Regardless, you're probably willing to call a half-pot bet, and a worse hand is probably not going to try to bluff you out.. highly unlikely, anyway.

Why not re-raise pre-flop?

Kirk

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

try a blocking bet of about $400 and probally fold to a raise dependending on my opponet. You really want to see a showdown but can't pay through the nose to do so.

silly

*edit. After thinking about it, against an agressive opponet I kind of like check/call a reasonable bet to induce a bluff here too. It would be pretty hard for villan to put you on a flush here. If I was villan you checked to me on this river and I had a hand that I though was behind. I would very likely make a large bet.

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

lot of times I reraise pf, but this time I didn't.

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

what would he bet here that you beat? 67???

While I want to say make a blocking bet, if you throw out 400 and he realizes his KQ or whatever is beat, he might bluff-raise you. If you check however, it lets his KQ get off cheap and he might love the free showdown... and if you check and he bets... what is he calling u with on the turn that would actually bet this river if not some sort of combo draw (including flush draw) or something better than TPTK?

is this flawed thinking do you think? i think c/f might be the answer but it's only because i can't think of what he bets at the end that we beat but he might raise a blocking bet - do you think that's scared poker or what? if you think he can possibly call with a worse hand i'd throw out like 500, but otherwise maybe just check?

i've actually been thinking about this idea a lot, i'd love some feedback - it feels like i'm always getting my blocking bets raised these days...

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

check folding I think is an extremely viable answer, I definitely considered that. whaddya think about the rest of the hand?

fwiw, at the time I thought my main options were check call, check fold and bet fold in that order. I am also interested in how bad a card ppl think the flush card is for me. at the time I thought it was a very very bad card.

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

The read OP got on his opponent was that his call on the turn was extremely tenous, so I wouldn't automatically discount the fact that his TPTK is no good. If, however, it's not, the bet on the river gives you a chance to fold out a lot of hands weaker than a flush, but stronger than the TPTK. I don't play 5/10, so I haven't played against a typical 5/10 player, but I seriously don't see a worse hand raising that river trying to bluff it's way out, unless that particular player is known to have the balls of steel, and both the size of basketballs.

Kirk

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

shouldnt it be badly?

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

nit.

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

why didnt you bet the turn? the turn c/r really put you in an awkward/bad river spot. (to be results thinking, of course)

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

so I wasn't sure if the turn cr is such a great play. I thought he would bet lots of hands if I checked and I also thought I had the best hand. you are right though, since I don't know if he's calling me with top pair + turned flush draw or with the nut flush draw on the flop half the deck sucks on the river.

--turnipmonster

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

[ QUOTE ]
so I wasn't sure if the turn cr is such a great play. I thought he would bet lots of hands if I checked and I also thought I had the best hand. you are right though, since I don't know if he's calling me with top pair + turned flush draw or with the nut flush draw on the flop half the deck sucks on the river.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

i like the c/r for your exact thinking if stacks are shallower so you can check/push

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

[ QUOTE ]
fwiw, at the time I thought my main options were check call, check fold and bet fold in that order.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds about right. I agree with you that the spade is a very ugly card for you, as I think that many donkish villains will try to pull the classic, "I have a drawing hand but I'm going to pretend to think for a really long time about your turn raise so you think I have some sort of made hand and will pay me off when my flush hits" move, as it seems our guy is doing here.

Of course, we don't know if he has spades or clubs, or 67. There's also a fair chance that he has a weaker king or a set.

All things considered, however, I think I like your hierarchy of options. I'd check-call up to 500-600, unless I knew villain to be either a rock or a habitual bluffer, in which case I'd check-fold to a big bet, and call a bit more, respectively.

[ QUOTE ]
whaddya think about the rest of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I reraise preflop sometimes, but I don't mind just calling, either, especially in games like this, cause AK sucks to play out of position unless you flop to it, and the donks aren't going anywhere preflop.

I like leading the flop.

I agree w/ BobboFitos about the turn CR. If you and villain were shallower, so that this was a stack-committing CR, then I like it lots. But as it is, it puts you in a really awkward spot on the river, when half the cards in the deck suck, and you're OOP against someone who is presumedly capable of bluffing scare cards. Any [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], any [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], any 3, any 8, and probably any Q, J, or 10 isn't going to make you happy. I prolly keep the lead and fire pot one more time.

-neon.

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

ack i didn't see the clubs, check/folding seems weaker now, but then again what club draw does villain call with on flop? K high clubs is very possible, but that's it. anyway yeah amend what i said about check/folding, i'm torn between that and check/calling.

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

Seems to me you are ahead, or tied with AK, 1/2 pot sounds nice, I think Id be hoping for a call

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me you are ahead, or tied with AK, 1/2 pot sounds nice, I think Id be hoping for a call

[/ QUOTE ]

With the idea of doing what to villain's very probable push?

Personally, I think that pot control considerations and potentially inducing a bluff from villain far outweigh any thin value turnip might be missing out on by not betting here . . .

results
 

I agree with bob and neon and everyone that says the stacks are a little deep for the turn cr.

I check called 600 on the river after some thinking but in retrospect I think I should have given a little more credence to him playing the nut flush draw this way on the flop and turn. no one said it was a clear fold yet, but I think it may be closer than I think.

I really really felt dirty check calling the river, and immediately afterwards felt I should have folded.

--turnipmonster.

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

the turn checkraise (particularly the amount) I find a little odd......what did you put him on?....if you thought you were ahead of a made hand, and the checkraise was for value, I'd probably bet the river and fold to a raise....if you put him on air, I might've just called the turn bet and then checked the river (calling anything of course)....(although, even given the line you took if you still had him on air on the turn, I think you should check/call the river).....

if you had him on some kind of draw or weren't quite sure, I would've either check/called turn and check/called river just for pot control purposes OR I would've checkraised the turn huge - much bigger than the amount you chose and an amount that committed me.....I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like your turn checkraise just bloated the pot and put villain in a spot to make life tough for you (particularly because he's got position/the table description you gave)......what were this guy's bluffing tendencies anyway?....

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

hey man, hope all is well. I put him on something like KQ and thought he might have picked up a draw on the turn. I didn't think he would bluff that often and felt comfortable folding to a raise.

--turnipmonster

Re: results
 

i said i would check fold. am i no one? i'm going to go cry in the corner.

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

i would check/fold...
i think the rest of the hand looks pretty good.

Re: results
 

don't cry in the corner [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I meant no one was like "check fold, next hand". I initially read your post as saying it should be taken into serious consideration, but not definitely the right play (which I agree with 100%). hope madrid is fun!

Re: I get fancy and play bad
 

turn check raise is horrible...

I rather check/call at this point then make the pot huge with tptk, and throw a blocking bet on the river if its safe, or check/call river again.