WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

About 170 left, 100 people money.
Blinds : 200/400
No real reads, except the only flops that have been seen have involved a blind, and have never been more than 2-way.

I am UTG with red TT. (I have 15k, average is 16k)
I raise 3bb to 1200.
UTG+1 calls and UTG+3 calls.

Flop is 256, all diamonds. (Pot 4200)

I have about 13k chips and lead out for 2400.
UTG+1 calls.
UTG+3 raises to 7200.

I think for a while, and reraise with my last 5k.


Thoughts?

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

That's probably what I'd do. Did you run into something like Kd-Qd, a set, or slowplayed aces/kings?

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

I wasnt watching you when you went out so I dont know the results.
I think I fold your probaly up against 2 overs and a flush draw and you will probaly be racing and I think you have a skill edge to wait for a better spot.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

Mmmmmm, really tough spot, but the 1st caller + the raiser + no diamond in my hand may indicate a fold here. Your best shot is caller with something like AdQs and raiser with 99; Did you consider checking this flop?

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

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I wasnt watching you when you went out so I dont know the results.
I think I fold your probaly up against 2 overs and a flush draw and you will probaly be racing and I think you have a skill edge to wait for a better spot.

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If you think this, I am getting 2.2:1 odds, so this would be an easy call.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

Yea your right, I think checking and seeing what develops like sirio said might be best.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

I really don't see how it is possible for a check to be an option here.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mmmmmm, really tough spot, but the 1st caller + the raiser + no diamond in my hand may indicate a fold here. Your best shot is caller with something like AdQs and raiser with 99; Did you consider checking this flop?

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Note that he DOES have a diamond in his hand. I really like checking this flop because you are ahead of a few hands that can play back at you as well as a race to some other hands that will likely be played aggresivly, putting you in a tough spot by betting out.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

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I really don't see how it is possible for a check to be an option here.

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I think it is reasonable, it's pretty unlikely neither of those stacks will bet unless you are reasonably far ahead. I think my default line is to play it like you did though but I do see value in checking.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

Why not? If one player check and the last player bets, you can check raise all in, why that play is not an option?

And it's not the only escenario possible.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not? If one player check and the last player bets, you can check raise all in, why that play is not an option?

And it's not the only escenario possible.

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As an experiment why not pretend you checked and give us the action back to us as you would predict it based on what the other players had and your read on them. I know there is a lot of guesswork involve but it may be interesting (I think you likely only know one of the two villains holdings).

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

I think checking is a good play here. First it allows you to get away if there's a bet and a raise. Second it lets you put maximum pressure on JJ/QQ with a diamond although i doubt you get a fold from them anyway. You also might more realistically fold out hands that you want gone like AQ with the Q of diamonds. When you bet and are called and then raised I think you have too much hand to fold, so in goes the money.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

Ok. A check/raise is definitley a different way to play this hand, but if we could, can we focus on how I played it, and if I can get away from it or not.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

You have too much hand to fold here. I think there are too many situations which are beneficial for you. Basically either your hand has to be good now, or your flush draw has to be good for this play to be +EV. How often is that the case? Also how often is UTG+3 getting aggressive with a hand like 99 w/diamond. It would help to know their stack sizes. I'm also assuming that since these guys were in EP you will not be dealing with hands like 89s that tagged along and flopped a flush. Given that AA/KK are unlikely it seems that overs+flush draw are by far the most likely scenario, with the small possibility of AK/AQ flopping the nuts, and a smaller possibility of UTG+3 getting frisky with 77/88/99+diamond. I don't see how this can be a fold.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. A check/raise is definitley a different way to play this hand, but if we could, can we focus on how I played it, and if I can get away from it or not.

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OK,

You raise PF and then make a smallish bet on a draw heavy board into two opponents who cold called before the flop and have previously been playing tight. The first one calls This could mean nice draw (two over plus diamond) or very possibly a made hand that has you almost dead which would almost certainly not raise. I think this is either nut flush or AxAd. It would help to know his stack size here but a hand like 88,99 seems unlikely as those should raise if they play.

The player in the last position now raises. I think a fair amount of strength has been shown in front of him so I think a non made hand is unlikely unless it is specifically AdKx I'm thinking JJ or a set/strange small flush (again knowing the stack sizes would help).

Honestly this is a great spot to race in this huge pot and pick up a big stack around bubble time but I think you are crushed here too often, and you are almost never far ahead when you are. I likely lay this down.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

I can't edit it.

They both had about 20k.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

I fail to see what specific cards have him crushed here quite often, while also leaving UTG+1 enough of a hand to call the initial flop bet with. I think UTG+3 most likely holdings are a set or two overs with the A of diamonds maybe even K of diamonds.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't edit it.

They both had about 20k.

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Then my comments stand, I think a laydown is prudent (even if MLG disagrees [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). I think it's close though.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

So you put one of the two players on a flopped flush a high percentage of the time here?

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see what specific cards have him crushed here quite often, while also leaving UTG+1 enough of a hand to call the initial flop bet with. I think UTG+3 most likely holdings are a set or two overs with the A of diamonds maybe even K of diamonds.

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Well the utg+1 coldcall is the most likely hand to have you in really bad shape. utg+3 could very easily have JJ or QQ but I agree is more likely to have set or AdK/Qx.

If it was guarenteed that utg +1 would fold of course easy call since you are about 35% against a set and 50% against AdKx, and getting a good price on the rest of your money even when you add JJ to utg+3's range.

The problem is that this gamble isn't worth it because of the times you are crushed by a made flush or more troubling when utg+1 gambles with AdK/Qx and utg+3 has a set (a likely scenario in my mind) leaving you with only 8% equity.

Let mw ask you this instead since we seem to agree on the raisers range, what hands do you see utg+1 coldcalling in this spot that he will now laydown?

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

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You have too much hand to fold here.

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I don't easily give credit for a made flush here.. i'd think i'm most likely vs two over's and a diamond.. or an overzealous 88/99.. though imagine it could be JJ too.

just did a little bit of pokerstove and i got you ahead of his range there... so i think i like it

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let mw ask you this instead since we seem to agree on the raisers range, what hands do you see utg+1 coldcalling in this spot that he will now laydown?




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Good question. 99/JJ w/diamond. AQ with Q of diamonds and maybe AK with K of diamonds. Also any overpair with no diamonds.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

This hand looks a little familiar... I like checking the flop too. As it is, I don't think you can get away from it the way you played it.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

oh god this must bring up some bad memories.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand looks a little familiar... I like checking the flop too. As it is, I don't think you can get away from it the way you played it.

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I thought the same thing before I even posted it.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

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oh god this must bring up some bad memories.

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Meh, I'm pretty much over it.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

How weak-tight do you think just pushing the flop is? Makes it clear to villains that you're not just making a continuation bet with a missed AK and you've made the odds for drawing to the flush as bad as possible. It's difficult to call with out the nut draw and maybe you get a hand like JJ without a diamond to lay. If you check-raise villains invest more into the pot and are less likely to fold their draws which are likely ahead of yours and you're probably getting it all-in anyway.

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

pot limit

i think check raising is best here since you can check raise all in and actually put some pressure on the other players (and get away from a bet and raise), whereas your cont. bet doesnt necessarily mean you like your hand and by the time someones raised you cant fold it because you're 50-50 or ahead more than enough to get it in there

Re: WCOOP 500 PLHE Bustout Hand
 

I prob. fold to the reraise, the cold caller scares me, because he either has the Ace of diamonds or a monster, and either way if he has a monster, utg3 prob. has the Ad or the monster, so I think you have to lay it down here.