Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

The original post can be found here

The general consensus seemed to just want to limp here, although one player advocated pushing. Since the majority says limp, we'll limp.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB (t1630)
UTG (t5535)
UTG+1 (t4905)
MP1 (t1190)
Hero (t1480)
CO (t1430)
Button (t1960)
SB (t1285)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. 2 folds, MP1 calls t100, Hero calls t100, 1 fold</font>, Button calls t100, 1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t450) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero ???



OK.... nice flop... we now have 1380 left in chips, a 450 pot, and the 2 players in front of us have checked..... now what are opinions and reasons from everyone? Does anyone think this is a situation where you want to build a pot, or do you want to try and keep the pot small? Either way, explain your reasons and how you will go about playing the hand now.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

I bet about T200 here. While it's too small a bet, if no one has anything they want to play with, it's as effective in picking up the pot as anything else.

The question is whether, on this draw-heavy board, you want to bet more to punish the draws. My personal sense is that it's hard to push out a big draw on the flop, and I'd prefer to drop the hammer on the turn. If you bet big here and get called, there are a lot of turn cards that will leave you with no idea whether you're still ahead, and it will cost you a lot of money to continue being aggressive. Keeping the pot small now leaves you lots of room to maneuver on the next street.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

I would bet out 200 chips. I've got to think that I've got the best hand right now and the only person that's getting odds to call my bet would be a flush draw. (Is that right or do I have my pot odds wrong?)

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

I don't understand something as of late that I've seen a lot in these forums. Everyone keeps advocating not to bet big on this draw heavy board because "too many bad cards will come on the turn that will ruin your hand". That is EXACTLY why you want to be big and make the draws pay.

Think about it this way. Everytime you make a big bet here like on this example of about 300-350 range it is incorrect for any draw to call. If they call GOOD that is what you want for your opponent to make a mistake. Yes sometimes they will draw out on you but in the LONG RUN this play is +EV. Stop being scared of being drawn out on. You will never get anywhere playing that way.

I bet 300-350 on this board. On a side note the only real threat is probably MP1 as BB has some random hand as far as you know.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

I bet out about 400 and try to take it right there. I don't want to price the Flush/straight draws in and I feel confident that my hand is best. With a few limpers there is a good chance someone is playing Axs in hearts. Make them pay to see the turn. Likewise the guy holding QJx.

I don't see how you can check this through and give up a free card. Too many cards hurt you.

Hotrod

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

Should I read the original post? I bet 350.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

The reason betting 200 here is a good idea is that if you bet more, a good draw may push into you, forcing you to make a decision for your chips as to whether your TPGK is good vs his possible draw/set/two pair/perhaps even better kicker. Betting 200 he is more inclined to call on the flop, and when he calls the chance of him completing his draw on the turn is much lower than the chance of him -not- completing it, and when you put the real pressure on him on the turn, he will be more inclined to give up on it. If his draw connects, you can get away from the hand much easier, and it was likely that if he (anyone) had a good draw they weren't going to give up on it either way, with a big bet from you inducing a push from them. A bet of 200 here will also take the pot down just as often as a somewhat higher bet if no one has anything worth continuing with. This is once again a spot where controlling the pot ends up making you more chips while keeping it easier for you to get away from the hand.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

I am moving in here and I am not concerned with the 2 checks in front, or those behind as they raise preflop with ak. If second,underpair or flush draw wants to come along, that is fine as they are making a mathmatical mistake. too bad you checked and the next card was a heart, giving someone the nuts and giving another trips.

further, i am not worried about the 2 checks in front as they are fools for not betting out here with trips against multi-way action on a drawing board. thats just me.

i hate multi-way action, but there's a good chance you take this pot down right now and pick up 450 which is a nice addition to your stack. u are called here with trips, or ak... but i doubt your seeing that much here.

alright flame away


by the way... i hate betting 200 here and giving someone odds to draw against you. my goal in these situations is to take down the pot and move on. giving someone odds to draw against you is almost certain death in a mult-way pot.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

thank you. put much more elogantly than i

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

Not if your intention is to hammer the pot down on the turn, which is much more likely to happen against drawers. Now you have won a bigger pot than you would have more often than not, and succeeded in getting the same information with a smaller bet as you would have with a bigger one, plus being able to get away from the hand much easier. I might actually bet 250-275 here, which is giving improper odds while keeping the pot smaller. 350-400 is too big of a hammer on the flop, and more likely to induce a push from a good draw than a hammer on the turn would be inducing them to fold.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

getting away from the hand cheaper? no thanks, that leaves me with about 8x BB. i take this biaaatch down and move on.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here. A bet of 300-350 does not induce a push here often enough to warrant a smaller bet. The typical internet player is just not sophisticated enough to push this draw enough times for me to want a smaller bet. A smaller bet here is just asking to get outdrawned.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

With the flush draw out there if MP hit his set he is going to lead out. As will any 2-pair/top pair hand. I think its safe to assume you are ahead.

After his check MPs range of hands can be shortened quite a bit. Any K is betting out, and hands like QJs, QTs would probably fold or raise pre-flop. So I would say likely hands are PP &lt; 9 (but not hit set) or AJ-A8.

Having given him that range I think a bet of ~250 is pretty safe, and I would expect to take the pot down right there.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

I bet 425 and go from there, for reasons already articulated by the "punish the draws" crowd.

Edit: to elaborate.... a small bet welcomes draws in, and if button calls with a draw or a T, then that prices in the other two behind us with as little as bottom pair. If it goes to the turn multi-way in a fairly big pot, then it will be very difficult to assess what cards are scare cards, and it will be uncomfortable to put our stack in (only reasonable turn bet considering the pot size) unless a K or non-heart Q hits the turn.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

i agree with everything but the small bet. that size bet attracts all kinds of action that you don't want. you don't have a healthy stack, and we have all established that your well ahead here.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

So let them peel one off for 300 chips?

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am moving in here

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely hate this line. You're not getting called by anything you're ahead of. Your best bet is Ax of hearts calling you, and you're not very far ahead of that hand. Pushing folds hands you beat and spews your stack into someone with a hand.

Do you really think someone calls you with AT here? That's about the best you can hope for.

[ QUOTE ]
I bet about T200 here. While it's too small a bet, if no one has anything they want to play with, it's as effective in picking up the pot as anything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the play. This hand is about keeping the pot small, until you know where you stand. Betting ~400 leaves us with ~980 in chips. That's pretty damn pot committed, if our flop bet gets called and we go into the turn with a pot of ~1250 or so.

If you bet 200 and get pushed into, you can get away from this hand, depending on your reads. If you bet 200 and get called, and the turn blanks, you can bet him off the hand - with an ~800 pot and an ~1150 stack.

Bet 200. Play poker on the turn.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

because at a bet of 200-300, it is profitable for them over the long haul to make the call. Part of being a profitable player is controling pot odds that are in your favor and force others in mathmatically incorrect situations.

Not sure if it was harrington or not but someone said that our success in poker will be the sum of our opponents mistakes minus your own. action is to me here, i feel i have the best hand, i am charging someone for that next card that is more expensive than they should pay.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

bet T400 on the flop, push the turn as long as its a non heart card thats lower than 8. re-evaluate the situation if a scare card falls

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

How is it profitable for someone with a flush draw to call at 3-1 pot odds when they are 5-1 to make their hand on the turn? I have no intention of letting them see the river for free. In fact, they will clearly be priced out on the turn.

While a flush or open-ended straight draw is making a small mistake by calling this bet, a small bet will also induce hands like a gutshot or middle pair to make a bigger mistake by taking a card off.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
While a flush or open-ended straight draw is making a small mistake by calling this bet, a small bet will also induce hands like a gutshot or middle pair to make a bigger mistake by taking a card off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Moreover, you're controlling the size of the pot, so you're not spewing chips when your hand happens to be behind. Keeping the hands you're beating in, while losing less money to the hands you're behind to. That's just as important - if not more so - than pricing out the draws.

There are recent threads on this, one in particular by Strassa2, that spring to mind. Read em.

I\'m VERY pleased so far
 

The PF post didn't get much attention, but now that we have a flop that is semi draw-heavy, a multi-way pot, and a decent, though vulnerable holding, we are seeing many more reactions to the play on the flop from differing playing personas, which is what I had hoped to get here.

Personally, I don't think there is a "right way" or a "wrong way" at this point in the hand, but for myself, I feel that some actions are much better than others, and those I will keep to myself until we see the hand through to the end.

I am not making this post in any way from a teaching stand point (as I am far from that), but I thought this might get some more discussion going in this forum and create "something new and different" for those of us interested in strategy and decisions made semi early on in MTTs to discuss.

Thanks for the great replies so far.... The turn will be posted sometime this afternoon.

'Mez

Re: I\'m VERY pleased so far
 

I want to make one more point before I shut my trap.
I have taken a more agressive line with this hand, primairly due to the realative shallow stacks and quick blind structures. Given a chip leading postion or earlier in the tournament, I get away from this hand in a heartbeat, and am probably folding this preflop. KQ is not a hand I ever like playing as it often crosses many other possible holdings. I think low suited cards are much more +ev than KQ ever is when multi-way action and when favorable pot odds exist. thanks for the feedback. I clearly think there is more than one side to this discussion.

go jackets.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

I disagree. In your average internet tourney if someone has KJ or Kx suited, which are both very realistic possabilities, I'd expect them to call a push here. Most the short stacks will think this is the best hand they'll get and be willing to call. The big stacks will probably think they have enough chips that even if their KJ is not winning, it won't kill them.

I'm not sure where I'd go here. I think I'm ahead here and my stack is so small I'd be pretty happy about taking the pot down right here. Most likely I'd bet out about 300 and push on the turn if no scare card came. But I also don't think a push is horrible. It's certainly not the best way to get the most out of this hand. But with the board this coordinated and so many people in the pot, I'd be content with taking the safe route, getting 450 chips now, and finding a way to eek out those extra couple hundred chips I'd possibly get another way.

Re: I\'m VERY pleased so far
 

based on all the response to this thread, i think we can all agree that KQ sucks

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

The issue of overthinking a hand when your opponents are barely even thinking does arise, doesn't it?

If we put them on a range that includes KJ, Kx sooted, and then throw in the other possible hands, is our push still +EV? I wonder. I'm too lazy to do any math right now.

But I'm inclined to agree with you that a worse king calls you.

I'd still rather bet small on the flop and push the turn.

Re: I\'m VERY pleased so far
 

I think I can confidantly presume that when you say you normally dump KQ, it is a standard play, no?

What we are looking at here is a situation where the table has a loose/passive texture, and it is quite likely that we are the best player at the current table.

If those things are true, then I think the value of a hand like KQs rises dramatically in value and can be played from a mid position area for a limp here.

Once again, those are my thoughts and we are not talking about a standard situation or TAG table here, to say the least.

Each situation must be analyzed of it's own accord and merits and acted upon in the best possible way.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

What is the size of your stack? What about your opponents? Are they aggressive or passive? Answers to these questions govern how I play this hand.

Re: I\'m VERY pleased so far
 

yes i will dump kq in a heartbeat from any early action. when "correct" table conditions exist, I will play this hand differently, especially if action is folded to me.

Re: Play Along...... street by street - The FLOP
 

I listed the link to PF play in the OP... if you missed it, the link is here



Ummmmmmm... plus all relevant information is in the OP.......