My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

My lack of checkraising in multiway pots is a huge flaw in my game, and here it cost me dearly. I figured I'd just post this hand as an example to those that share this common problem.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 26.50 BB

Results :
Hero has 5s 5d (three of a kind, fives).
BB has 7d 4c (straight, seven high).
CO has 8d 9d (one pair, nines).
Button has Jh 4h (straight, six high).
Outcome: BB wins 26.50 BB. </font>

I'm 100% sure that a bet would have been placed to my left had I checked this flop, and could have more than likely have chased out at least the big blind, making him possibly call 3 cold seeing the action that ensued my bet.

I wanted to scream when I saw the results, but realized it was my fault the pot was lost. Live and learn I guess...

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

if it helps: you were losing that hand regardless of whether you c/r or not. Loose Button had a flush draw with the 4 and was calling down regardless...hope that helps [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

I don't really understand your reasoning here. How could you be sure of a bet from your left on this flop. UTG was the pf raiser. Wouldn't you expect him to bet? If he does, and you check-raise, you can only drive BB out (if even him). It turned out that his was the draw that would come in, but you couldn't know that on the flop.

Actually, I quite like the flop line you took. Bet out, hoping that the pf raiser raises you, thus maby clearing out some of the 3 players behind him.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

In higher limits I would say yes but this is just too low a limit for a check/raise to limit the field. Money in these games comes from punishing the field with their draws which is what you are doing on the flop and turn. Your river play is questionable as there is a flush and straight draw on the board, both of which cover your set.

Are you still happy when you win 4 out of 5 hands in these exact circumstances? I thought you would say yes.

Continue to play the flop strong (and the turn if you feel you are still ahead) but when that board gets threatening against a school of fish even they can be like shark. Realize that their raise may just be two pair but could also be the flush or straight that came through. Point is, you don't know and the pot is already big and there are no other cards to come so might as well play it safe on this round.

Take it for what it's worth.

[ QUOTE ]
My lack of checkraising in multiway pots is a huge flaw in my game, and here it cost me dearly. I figured I'd just post this hand as an example to those that share this common problem.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 26.50 BB

Results :
Hero has 5s 5d (three of a kind, fives).
BB has 7d 4c (straight, seven high).
CO has 8d 9d (one pair, nines).
Button has Jh 4h (straight, six high).
Outcome: BB wins 26.50 BB. </font>

I'm 100% sure that a bet would have been placed to my left had I checked this flop, and could have more than likely have chased out at least the big blind, making him possibly call 3 cold seeing the action that ensued my bet.

I wanted to scream when I saw the results, but realized it was my fault the pot was lost. Live and learn I guess...

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
In higher limits I would say yes but this is just too low a limit for a check/raise to limit the field.

[/ QUOTE ]
could you explain this. i don't get it.

[ QUOTE ]
Money in these games comes from punishing the field with their draws which is what you are doing on the flop and turn

[/ QUOTE ] this is true no matter what limit you are playing.

i like how the entire hand was played.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

You should be checking the flop so you can check-raise UTG's bet and trap the whole field for two bets. You don't want to fold people out; you want to build a pot.

Yes, you're right that you should have gone for a check-raise but your reasoning process is skewed and results-oriented.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand your reasoning here. How could you be sure of a bet from your left on this flop. UTG was the pf raiser. Wouldn't you expect him to bet? If he does, and you check-raise, you can only drive BB out (if even him). It turned out that his was the draw that would come in, but you couldn't know that on the flop.

Actually, I quite like the flop line you took. Bet out, hoping that the pf raiser raises you, thus maby clearing out some of the 3 players behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh.

Why do you want to clear out a bunch of players behind you? You have a monster hand on a ragged, relatively drawless board. You WANT people calling so you can get paid off on your set. Trap the field.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should be checking the flop so you can check-raise UTG's bet and trap the whole field for two bets. You don't want to fold people out; you want to build a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was my first thought as well.

To the OP: Don't worry about the results. Worry about whether each decision is correct.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

Seems like you're being results oriented here. Middle set you want to build the pot, not knock out opponents too quickly.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

Alright, I understand that I'm being results oriented with my incorrect reason for checkraising. But a checkraise here is the better play yes? Maybe not 3-bet it if it's bet/raised but at least raise here if UTG bets here and it comes around to me?

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you want to clear out a bunch of players behind you? You have a monster hand on a ragged, relatively drawless board. You WANT people calling so you can get paid off on your set. Trap the field.



[/ QUOTE ]

um there is a fd, 2OESD possible, and a ton of gutshots, you really wouldn't mind folding out any gutshots, or at least give them bad odds

you need to worry more about your hand here, folding [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or single [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] can also be helpful.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

A set gives you the best hand AND the best draw. Build a pot.

That sure looks like a tough game, though. How could you win when these guys will call with ANYTHING?

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

On the flop, there is neither a flush draw nor any likely OESD (I'm not overly worried about 42 or 64).

By trapping the field and tying people to the pot, we definitely increase our risk of getting our set cracked. But we also increase the size of the pots that we win. Most of the time, with this particular board, our opponents are drawing practically dead, and even if they get lucky we have a strong draw to a boat. In the long run I think you should be happy to have [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or somesuch coming along for the ride, even if it costs you an occasional pot. It's all EV.

Edit: I missed the two hearts on the flop every time I looked at it, so yeah I see the flush draw there now. Still, you're not driving it out anyway.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
um there is a fd, 2OESD possible, and a ton of gutshots, you really wouldn't mind folding out any gutshots, or at least give them bad odds

you need to worry more about your hand here, folding [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or single [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] can also be helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, this is what I was originally thinking when I first reviewed the hand. I'm not gonna drive out the FD, but I DO want to make the Gutshot's draw unprofitable.

Appreciate the feedback, please keep it coming.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

Hey, there is a flush draw there. Every time I looked at this hand it looked like [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to me. Go figure.

Not that that changes anything.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

I want gutshots calling 2cold incorrectly on the flop, not calling 1bet twice, both times correctly .. and if they fold, hey I picked up 4safe cards, that would have cost me this huge pot

also you guys underestimate the times UTG checks this flop with AK, AQ which outnumber the bigpairs that will bet.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
That sure looks like a tough game, though. How could you win when these guys will call with ANYTHING?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you kidding

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

The only mistake you made on this hand is being results oriented and thinking you made a mistake.

Played perfectly, I play it the same.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

You have over 60% equity on the flop and and getting closer to 70% of the turn. Just concentrate on getting bets in.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want gutshots calling 2cold incorrectly on the flop, not calling 1bet twice, both times correctly .. and if they fold, hey I picked up 4safe cards, that would have cost me this huge pot

[/ QUOTE ]

It is the exact same thing whether they call one bet at a time or two at once. You make the same amount of money in either case.

Look at it this way. You have a gignormous equity edge over a gutshot. For that matter, you have a huge equity edge against a flush draw or oesd (I think you only lose about 2/9ths of the time against those "strong draws.) Whether it is "correct" for the draw to call doesn't concern me; what concerns me is that I make a lot of money off every bet that goes into the pot.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

C/R flop, for value

you played it fine though IMO

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

Jrz1972 is right. You should concentrate on trying to maximise the size of the pot when you have a set.

You have a strong draw to a full house against flush draws and OESD's, and hopefully the pot will also be padded by other players drawing nearly dead.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jrz1972 is right. <font color="blue">You should concentrate on trying to maximise the size of the pot when you have a set. </font>

You have a strong draw to a full house against flush draws and OESD's, and hopefully the pot will also be padded by other players drawing nearly dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It is the exact same thing whether they call one bet at a time or two at once. You make the same amount of money in either case.

Look at it this way. You have a gignormous equity edge over a gutshot. For that matter, you have a huge equity edge against a flush draw or oesd (I think you only lose about 2/9ths of the time against those "strong draws.) Whether it is "correct" for the draw to call doesn't concern me; what concerns me is that I make a lot of money off every bet that goes into the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

A couple fundamental points in poker:
1. put your opponents in positions to make mistakes
2. be aggressive in large pots to maximize your chances of winning.

reread the bolded section together and realize how little sense this makes.

<font color="blue">Blue section</font>: incorrect. you should concentrate on WINNING the pot, which coincidentally results in a bigger pot and having draws pay the max (and the pot is big enough, we have a huge profit when/if they fold already).

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

You definitely have a point. I think probably what Jrz is saying though, is that people at these stakes are going to make mistakes either way. This guy was going to call his inside draw whether it was 1,2,3 or 4 bets back to him. So I think a strong case can be made for taking a line that puts the most bets in the middle when you have an edge, rather than focusing on giving people the wrong odds to call for a draw. For example, going for a check raise on the flop here would give this guy incorrect odds to call an inside draw. However, the guy is going to call anyways, and in order to give this guy incorrect odds to call, you just missed out on putting 3-4BB's into a pot that you're a huge favorite to win.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

Are you saying that its fundamentally incorrect to value bet my set?

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that its fundamentally incorrect to value bet my set?

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* no, what i'm saying is you don't make more money by c/r but by betting out and you force many draws to cold call 2 incorrectly, which is fine BECAUSE our hand is so strong, but it still forces them to make the mistake and because the pot is already so big, IF they fold we win as well.

you get the max by betting into a PRF who may raise, all draws cold call, allowing you to then 3-bet your strong hand and getting draws to call 3 bets instead of 2, so not only do you force them to make a mistake, but you get more money out of them and at the same time maximizing your chances to win this big pot if they correctly fold.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that its fundamentally incorrect to value bet my set?

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* no, what i'm saying is you don't make more money by c/r but by betting out and you force many draws to cold call 2 incorrectly, which is fine BECAUSE our hand is so strong, but it still forces them to make the mistake and because the pot is already so big, IF they fold we win as well.

you get the max by betting into a PRF who may raise, all draws cold call, allowing you to then 3-bet your strong hand and getting draws to call 3 bets instead of 2, so not only do you force them to make a mistake, but you get more money out of them and at the same time maximizing your chances to win this big pot if they correctly fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well yeah if I had a guarantee that the PFR would raise and everybody would call and I would get to three-bet, obviously I would go that route. That gets even more bets in the pot than the line I was advocating.

The problem with that is that it won't happen all that often, so I'm going for a check-raise instead.

You guys are too worried about gutshots on this board. You have a gigantic equity edge over the field. The way you make money at poker is by maximizing the number of bets that go into the pot in these situations. There's nothing really fancy or complicated about this hand. You have a very strong holding that will usually (2/3 of the time or so) win UI. Even if your opponents make their draw, about 1/3 of the remaining time you'll improve to a better hand yourself. This is just an exercise in value betting.

I'm not sure you fully realize that I make money off every bet a gutshot puts into this pot, even if he is correct in calling.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
*sigh* no, what i'm saying is you don't make more money by c/r but by betting out and you force many draws to cold call 2 incorrectly, which is fine BECAUSE our hand is so strong, but it still forces them to make the mistake and because the pot is already so big, IF they fold we win as well.

you get the max by betting into a PRF who may raise, all draws cold call, allowing you to then 3-bet your strong hand and getting draws to call 3 bets instead of 2, so not only do you force them to make a mistake, but you get more money out of them and at the same time maximizing your chances to win this big pot if they correctly fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

*bingo* [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

The pot was already substantial at the flop, and I would have been quite happy winning it right then and there [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] But by betting into everyone I forced fish to call the bet(incorrectly...this is true), and once a fish puts money in a flop, they arent going to fold to any sized bet. I could have potentially punished these draws more by checking and then raising when it came back to me, even POSSIBLY forcing at least one or two people out(the BB most notably...he wouldn't have bet the flop if checked to him with that hand) if faced with calling 2 or 3 bets cold. If they all call anyway, they're even more incorrect to do so. I have just as much equity(even more actually) with less players seeing the turn however, and the pot would have been just as large.

My for instance in this specific hand...

If I check, the BB checks and the PFR bets(a reasonable assumption) the CO raises(or doesn't I guess it doesn't matter really)and it comes back to me and I three bet(or raise) everyone who calls at this point is incorrect and potentially moreso because it'll cost them more to call. I would have put UTG in a predicament and BB would have been even WORSE off than he was with the line I took.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with that is that it won't happen all that often, so I'm going for a check-raise instead

[/ QUOTE ]

this is based on what? you're assuming he doesn't have AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or AA- who would raise this. even UI overcards might raise this figuring you only have a 9 and they're trying a "free card" more, or you may bet out, the PFR calls, but the flush draw raises trying for the "free card". plus if they do have AA or something and you c/r they are not 3-betting, so you've lost even more bets.

plus if you check, the UI cards may check it through and the LP flush draw bets, now what? you're probably valuebetting your trips and facing the field to cold call anyways and now you've lost even more bets, so your foundation of "getting in more bets" is lost.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are too worried about gutshots on this board

[/ QUOTE ] i don't know where you came up with this line of thinking. i believe in my post i was pretty emphatic about the strength of your hand. if they fold- good, if they don't- good. either way we win in the long run. [ QUOTE ]
The way you make money at poker is by maximizing the number of bets that go into the pot in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, and i agree with this and i believe both in this post and the previous one, i have clearly stated that betting out puts more $$$ in the pot, so i don't understand what this thought is trying to accomplish.
[ QUOTE ]
This is just an exercise in value betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true and the line i have suggested will meet your requirements of a bigger pot and maximize our chances of winning- win/win situation. the c/r will not- in this situation.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

As this thread seems to be about how to best to play a set, heres a hand that I played some time ago:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds,MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (10 BB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
MP3 bets, CO folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Without being results orientated, do you think that I played this hand correctly ? At the time, I raised the flop to try to protect my hand.

However it occurred to me afterwards, that (to exploit my flop equity edge) I may have been better off not raising the flop to knock players out.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

Well, first of all, UI overcards are not raising if I bet and checking through if I check. That's inconsistent. You and I both know that UI overs (villain's most likely holdin) will often simply call a bet but will bet if checked to. Yes, I know there are some opponents who don't play that way, but most do.

I agree that we should not be sad about gutshots calling. Since that was my main point in this thread, I'm not sure why you're so worked up over it.

If you agree that this hand is really just about value-betting and not so much about protecting your hand against threats that are very unlikely to be present, I'm not sure what the big deal is. Either way the OP is mistaken in his focus on BB.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds,MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (10 BB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
MP3 bets, CO folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's tough that you have crappy relative position on the flop bettor, but I think this is find.

I almost responded by blasting your turn and river play - I didn't see any red, so I thought you'd checked it through! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

totally different situation if trying to compare to the OP.

and yes it is fine. and yes you are being result-oriented in your thinking. it is easy to say "oh i should have just called" when you rivered your full house. but it sucks when you let 56 stay in the hand and get their turned gutshot, or let A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] stayin in cheaply and get runner-runner [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s when they would have folded the flop.

besides: flush draws and OESD and other draws will pay double to stay in the hand, so make them. plus if someone thinks you're on a flush draw, they may bet back into you again on the turn (or get 2 pair and c/r you), allowing you to get even more bets.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

I would play this hand the same way. You've got a guy who likes his hand enough to bet, another player whose already called, and there's a decent chance somebody is on a diamond draw and will give you action. Might as well raise it up.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you agree that this hand is really just about value-betting and not so much about protecting your hand against threats that are very unlikely to be present, I'm not sure what the big deal is. Either way the OP is mistaken in his focus on BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh i'm not worked up. i'm merely suggesting that you can value bet AND protect better by betting out.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh i'm not worked up. i'm merely suggesting that you can value bet AND protect better by betting out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, I'm really tired, misreading posts AND performing the dreaded results oriented thinking, but how does value betting this flop protect my hand? What if everyone had just called...?

I understand that checking here and possibly having everyone check around is devastating. But given the preflop raise here, isn't it safe to assume that he would have bet this out? Wouldn't this have been more profitable AND possibly protect my hand should the PFR decide to make it a 3-bet?

I understand I'm a HUGE favorite to win this hand, regardless of who and what calls me, AKs FD, other FDs, OESD's, 2 pair, etc...wouldn't checkraising have been better under these circumstances?

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

I think that in this case that the bet/3bet line worked to perfection. But I think it really depends on the aggression of the PFR. b/c while it sucks to have it checked through it equally sucks to not get raised on the flop. I think that in a lot of cases the c/r is the best bet b/c it puts more money in the pot.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

I think betting the flop is better than going for a c/r, the reasons have allready been given by @bsolute luck.

What I would like to ask about is heros action on the turn. Would trying for a check raise on the turn be a good idea. The button capped the flop, so I think he is quite likely to bet the turn if checked to, that allows you to raise and face the other two players with having to pay two cold if they wish to continue. If either has an ace they no longer have the odds to call for a gut shot. By betting out on the turn the pot will be 15.5BB so if the big blind or cut off have an ace they have good odds to draw to a four for a wheel straight.

Re: My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)
 

Just get as many bets as possible into the middle of the table. Simple as that.

Of course you should be looking for signs that you may be beat on the turn and river. That is poker.

Re: (a case for checkraising)/calling all carpals
 

I would really like some input from a carpal or two here. Ever time I clicked on a different point of view I found myself aggreeing. After all the reading, I think I came down on the c/r side of things(prob results oriented). But I'm a noob, so what do I know.

Thanks in advance [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]