AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

I was planning on raising the river until the Q came out and had a good feeling that it made him a better hand. Should I just raise the turn here and not get too tricky? Does anyone even raise the flop here?

My thoughts were... if it was a pure bluff, raising the turn might lose me 1BB, and raisng the flop will lose me 2BBs. If it was KQ, unless a Q hits the river, I make the same amount raising the turn or the river, and probably lose 1BB by raising the flop. If it was KJ, I lose the same out raising the turn or river, and maybe even more if he smooth calls a raise from me on the flop.

As you can see, I'm confused about this hand.

Party Poker 5.00/10.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(5 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.70 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.70 BB.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

Raise the turn always.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

If i play the hand like you did I will raise the river and folding to a three bet is easy. Normally though I will just go ahead and raise the flop hoping to get three bet from a weaker king. This is a draw happy board so I dont want hime to see any street cheaply. There is a time to wait until the river to raise but I dont like it here. If I am going to wait to the river to raise I want the villian to be outright bluffing or will fold a hand that will continue betting if I raise on an earlier street

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Raise the turn always.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to explain?

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

nd had a good feeling that it made him a better hand.

This is pretty weak tight. The Q isnt a very scary card, I'd have raised the river as planned.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

You have TP/TK why aren't you raising? There are NO scare cards in this entire hand.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have TP/TK why aren't you raising? There are NO scare cards in this entire hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Q was a scare card. I put Villain on KQ or KJ here. I don't see him calinga 3-bet PF with KT or any worse K.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

Q is NOT A SCARE CARD!!! A scare card is a card that will complete a flush or straight, not a card that "might give him 2pair" because EVERY card is then a scare card - every card could make him a set or 2pair. If this type of card scares you, I would take up go-fish rather than poker.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

Against some players, I'm raising the flop; against others, the turn.

But I'm definitely raising somewhere.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Q is NOT A SCARE CARD!!! A scare card is a card that will complete a flush or straight, not a card that "might give him 2pair" because EVERY card is then a scare card - every card could make him a set or 2pair. If this type of card scares you, I would take up go-fish rather than poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

come on man he 3 bet pf, the Q is scarier than the 3s.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

How would you make that distinction?

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Q is NOT A SCARE CARD!!! A scare card is a card that will complete a flush or straight, not a card that "might give him 2pair" because EVERY card is then a scare card - every card could make him a set or 2pair. If this type of card scares you, I would take up go-fish rather than poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really ignorant and dogmatic, and quite frankly, tough to take seriously. If you think all cards are equally likely to give him a second pair, then I will see you at the go-fish tables my friend. If he didn't already flop the two pair, then this card is VERY likely to have done it for him. Not to be to results-oriented, and I certainly am not citing this to say one move is better than another on average, but my read WAS correct and Villain DID have KQ. This is why I think a raise on the turn makes the most sense. Given that his kicker will miss more often than it will hit on the river, this is +EV play. My question now is, do you fold to a three-bet on the turn, or shutdown and check/call the river?

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

Why would you not raise the turn here. He is not pure bluffing you. This is most likely either a K that wanted to bet / 3 bet you or its a draw!! RAISE THAT TURN! you charge the draw! and get value from the Kx! Raising flop and getting 3 bet is fine too. You can either cap or pop the turn.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

"You have TP/TK why aren't you raising? There are NO scare cards in this entire hand."

Except that the card that hit on the river happened to be the one of the worst in the deck for hero. But yeah, I guess there are no scare cards when a guy who raises UTG, just calls the threebet, bets out on a KJx flop continues to be into a preflop threebettor when a Q hits the river.

-Michael

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

He should call a three bet with any king that he raised preflop. Players who raise and then fold to a three bet exist only in weak tight fairy tairy land.

I agree that the Queen is the card you are rooting against (since you gotta root for something) i would raise this turn here most of the time.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

"My question now is, do you fold to a three-bet on the turn, or shutdown and check/call the river?"

Entirely read dependant. In happier times i even got to cap hands like this.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

How you would react to a three bet in either situation, and the likelyhood that his flop bet is a pure bluff/underpair that he will bet again on the turn... ect.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

Q does indeed suck, and it might be best to just call at that point. however i think in this spot i'd raise the flop, and if i didn't raise the flop i'd certainly raise the turn.

the reason i'd prefer to just raise on the flop on this hand vs. most is that that board is somewhat drawy. you might get a little extra action because of that (either played back with slightly weaker, or called down with weaker pair), and also waiting until the turn could easily backfire. anything 9 or higher, or a spade could be bad news. either bad b/c it gives him a better hand, or bad b/c it scares him into check/call mode, or bad b/c it allows him to make a good fold to your turn raise with the weaker hands that he might have called down with if you had popped the flop.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

Raise the flop. or turn

Steve Griff

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

Gotta raise flop or turn. You are ONLY behind one reasonable hand (KJ) and there are so many other he could have, with 2-15 outs to beat you. Have to charge the draws, worrying about losing a pure bluff is not enough IMO, especially since the pot is not that small.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

I definitely raise the turn and call down a 3bet.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gotta raise flop or turn. You are ONLY behind one reasonable hand (KJ) and there are so many other he could have, with 2-15 outs to beat you. Have to charge the draws, worrying about losing a pure bluff is not enough IMO, especially since the pot is not that small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are forgetting about 55 and JJ, so three reasonable hands. Four, if he is the type who would not cap preflop with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Actually, the betting makes me think UTG has either a set, a flush draw, a straight draw, or AJ. I generally raise the flop here, since there are worse hands that I would raise the flop with. I would be more inclined to raise the flop against a player who would play KJ or a set fast on the flop. I would be more inclined to wait until the turn against a player who bluffs way too much and has a questionable opening range or one who normally slow-plays if he can beat TPTK.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

actually the Queen is a [censored] river card. I raise the turn, call a 3bet, go from there.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are forgetting about 55 and JJ, so three reasonable hands. Four, if he is the type who would not cap preflop with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure those hands are possibilities but most would cap preflop with JJ or AKs, and far from everybody raises 55 UTG. But ok you are right, have to consider those against some players.

Edit: Interesting post by the way.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sure those hands are possibilities but most would cap preflop with JJ or AKs, and far from everybody raises 55 UTG. But ok you are right, have to consider those against some players.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what sort of opponents you normally play against, but probably a third of the players I see wouldn't cap with AKs. Some think they are slow-playing and trapping or want to encourage someone to call behind them, while others are afraid of being against a big pair. I have run across a few players whose three-betting range seemed to be AA/KK and an occasional suited or connecting hand when trying to make a move on someone (which, for some reason, they like to do out of the small blind). There are also some who won't cap with AA or KK because they think they are being deceptive, so against certain opponents, those are possible hands.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

Possible hands maybe.. but not what we should be fearing. If they call the 3-bet with just about all the hands they open with, we're still ahead on this board the vast majority of the time. I probably raise the flop and raise the turn again if he stop and goes.

Re: AKs 5-10 6max -- Is This ALWAYS Wrong?
 

Waiting for the river is fine with opponents that can read hands and aren't overly aggressive, it'll keep sets and two pairs from 3betting you a lot of the time where on the turn they would have 3bet you. And a pair will almost always pay off. So it gains a bet when ahead but doesn't get you threebet and led into on the river when you're behind.

But I don't think this hand is the absolute best example for this play.