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What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
I have NotReady in other threads stating that he doesn't expect to find perfection of doctrine in any denomination, although he can't demonstrate logical contradictions in my views. And I have OOO and udon'tknowmickey stating that it is reasonable to believe that God doesn't care if His divine messages are transmitted down to our time free of error. Do you all not realize the implications of this? You are playing right into the hands of those who deny the truth of Christianity by claiming that Jesus didn't really exist or that even if he did then those who wrote about him made up a lot of it, and that even after that the doctrines based upon what he said are not correct interpretations of scripture even given that it is true.
When you profess faith in any belief system, whether religious, mathematical or scientific, you start out with certain premises or axioms which by definition cannot be proved to certainty, but the evidence for same is enough for you, espcially if you believe you possess personal evidence that tips the scales, although which would usually not be credible to others. How improbable those axioms might be determines how seriously non-believers are willing to take that system. In other words, you have to avoid extreme far-fetchedness. After that you derive derivative theorems or doctrines which should not conflict logically either among themselves or with the axioms. Regarding matters of religion, this is a matter of spiritual as well as intellectual integrity. Anyone willing to accept such contradictions can claim no better thinking than someone who believes in astrology. Logic is a part of the sphere of knowledge with strong mathematical foundations. To refuse to acknowledge or to accept logical contradictions is no different than maintaining that the earth is flat or that 3^2 really does not equal 9. I give tons more respect to the intellectually honest views of atheists and agnostics like andy or David, than I do to any Christian who either can't formulate logically correct views, denies logical implications, or worse yet can't even see them. All of this is not proof in and of itself that my particular religious beliefs, i.e. catholocism, are true. Many of you may not possess the theological knowledge to rebut various points I make to as great a degree as a theology professor in a protestant seminary would be able to. A good analogy for this is to look at these theological arguements, what we call apologetics in my church, as the various lines in a book of chess openings. Just because you know only 1/2 the line doesn't make me correct since others with greater knowledge could take it further even if they couldn't actually refute my views. But if you can't even make logical arguments with fellow Christians, then you have no hope of ever persuading thinking non-believers. |
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And I have OOO and udon'tknowmickey stating that it is reasonable to believe that God doesn't care if His divine messages are transmitted down to our time free of error. [/ QUOTE ] I never said any such thing. God can care and not intervene. Example: Thousands of children died of starvation in Africa today. Hundreds of people died in car accidents. People got raped, murdered, assaulted, ripped off. Does the fact that God didn't intervene mean he didn't care? Also, even if he chose to intervene, he may have other ways of sending his message without providing the correct scriptural interpretation to exactly ONE particular religion. Do you see how silly your logic is? |
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I said I was done with you and am only replying for the benefit of others. God cares about everything, the only difference is how much He is willing to intervene, especially given that He allows men free will. But if you maintain that He doesn't intervene to at least see that His message is availabe somewhere uncorrupted, then you cannot logically debate about anything to do with that message. And regarding the implications for debating with non-believers, you have now adopted premises that can't be proved to a certainty, and then also allowed it to come to pass that those premises can't even be guaranteed to be stated correctly. So you are presenting unbelievers with a compound probabiility of an X% probability that a premise Y which iteself already possesses less than 100% probability of being true is correct. The fact that you don't see this is why I said I was through debating with you.
It's not enough that you try to convince non-believers to accept that Christianity is a good bet without perfect information, but you have to go and try to get them to accept a parlay instead. Good Luck. |
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But if you maintain that He doesn't intervene to at least see that His message is availabe somewhere uncorrupted, then you cannot logically debate about anything to do with that message. [/ QUOTE ] So are you saying the bible is corrupted? Because if it is truly his word, it satisfies your criteria for being "available somewhere uncorrupted". How people interpret his word, or turn it down completely, is then their business, wouldn't you think? Also, I am not adopting any premises, simply pointing out the illogic in yours. But I won't reply to any more of your religion posts. Good luck with your campaign. |
Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
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I give tons more respect to the intellectually honest views of atheists and agnostics like andy or David, than I do to any Christian who either can't formulate logically correct views, denies logical implications, or worse yet can't even see them. [/ QUOTE ] Well said. Sticking one's head in the sand or spewing dogma one doesn't understand or care to look at deeply is hardly the basis for a personal belief system. |
Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
True faith needs no proof.
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Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
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True faith needs no proof. [/ QUOTE ] Try to sell that to someone who doesn't already believe. Plus you should want to know that you are placing your faith in 100% of the truth and not a lesser number, when by switching denominations or changing your views slightly it might be possible to achieve that. |
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Please give a reason why Jesus spoke in parables and the fact that he said in Mark 4:
[ QUOTE ] 10And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven." [/ QUOTE ] Jesus himself said that he spoke in parables so that some may be confused and not understand. I am not denying that God has given us a true transmission, but just that there are times when God muddies the waters. This plays directly into divine sovereignty. God had decreed some for destruction, and this is one of the ways he brings them to reject Scripture. If they truly understood, they wouldn't reject Scripture. You still haven't given an explanation of Romans 9 which is consistant with your view of God's foreknowledge of future rejection which is denied in Romans 9: 11) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- (emphasis added) These actually aren't contradictions per se, since you claim to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, but the problem is that the RCC hasn't infallibly defined predestination as you do, nor has it infallibly defined the extent or scope of tradition. You're standing on air now. It's very easy to be logically consistant when there is nothing to be logically consistant to. You have also yet to demonstrate a logical contradiction in my words. You've just been offended that I would claim that God muddies the waters, but this is entirely consistant with my system of beliefs. I don't know why I'm still posting. My points have been made and unanswered. The RCC has not infallibly interpreted any of the verses, so now it's just your opinion against mine. I think this is my last post unless you properly interpret those verses consistant with your views. Sorry David, I know you have been thoughally entertained by my antics these past few days, but there is only so much time I am willing to devote to debate. NotReady seems to be still going strong though. *washes hands* *wipes dust* Matt. 7:6 |
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True faith needs no proof. [/ QUOTE ] Nor does true ignorance, coincidentally. |
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Teach the ignorant so that they too my know.
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I never said that I had faith.
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Teach the ignorant so that they too my know. [/ QUOTE ] What about the ones who aren't ignorant but require either proof or at least something that makes logical sense? Are they to be abandoned, left for dead? |
Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
The only thing(s) that I 'believe' is/are
Gasoline is three bucks a gallon where I live. Bluffing is rarely adviseable in a loose game. Good sex is wonderful but a good lay will do. Momma's baby Poppa's maybe. Hearsts don't have luggage racks. etc... |
Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
Sorry I was under the assumption that the man thinks I am ignorant, which I am. I was asking Him to teach me. I was not giving the call to evengelism.
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Jesus himself said that he spoke in parables so that some may be confused and not understand. I am not denying that God has given us a true transmission, but just that there are times when God muddies the waters. [/ QUOTE ] I have stated I am not replying to this poster anymore and I am just replying for the benefit of others. There are many religious truths taught in parables, but really not any doctrines that are disputed among the denominations, so parables are not a correct example of what I am talking about and that should be obvious. But what is absolutely comical about this poster's use of parables as an example, is that although Jesus did mean not to explain the meanings of parables to those hearers who did not have an open mind and heart, He explained each and every one of them to the apostles and those explanations are written plain in the gospels for anyone to read. The reason I said I wouldn't debate with this poster is that it is too much work to constantly explain semantic meaning and logical conclusions. He just made my point in spades. |
Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
NotReady and spaminator, where are you?
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Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
"When you profess faith in any belief system, whether religious, mathematical or scientific, you start out with certain premises or axioms which by definition cannot be proved to certainty, but the evidence for same is enough for you, espcially if you believe you possess personal evidence that tips the scales"
i don't profess faith in any belief systems. I have given my heart and my life based on my Faith in the Living God. there is a difference. If you believe in me as a teacher and a leader, and you trust me, then it doesn't matter that other people interpret my teaching and leadership methods in varous, and often conflicting ways. what matters is that your faith rests in me, and that you follow me. the same goes for my Faith in God. I learn from the preachers in my church, and others I discuss my faith with. I learn from Catholic and Baptist and Lutheran and Covenant and non-denominational teaching. I don't believe any of them have a stranglehold on Truth. but, I don't believe that is the point, either. I believe the point is to live our lives as fully devoted followers of Christ, and to live by the 2 simple commandments that He emphasized: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind, and your strength. and Love your neighbor as yourself. if you can follow those 2 things, you don't have to worry about commandments and special purification laws and whether or not you baptize your child as an infant or whether its ok to pray to Mary or sell indulgences or speak in tongues. I think the biggest weapon in Satan's very real and very potent attack on the Body of Christ (the church, ALL who believe in Him) is that of getting people mixed up and fighting over theology and politics. it takes the focus squarely away from the main point, which is to love Jesus and serve other people (through meeting their needs and leading them back to God). we can argue about which doctrines are better, and the truth and historicity of those doctrines, and the political ramifications, but we'd be missing the point. i hope that makes sense. at least enough for you to see where i am coming from. |
Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
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But if you can't even make logical arguments with fellow Christians, then you have no hope of ever persuading thinking non-believers. [/ QUOTE ] Now that's a hoot. Perhaps they should concentrate on non-thinking non-believers? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] And what are the axioms behind your last statement? -Zeno |
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You don't always have to try and prove your stance. When it comes to religions, often living an example of your faith is the best way to puruade someone. You can debate with them till you're blue in the face, but if they see you acting on your belief's they will atleast know without a doubt that you have put all your faith into your religion. That will be more persuading than ancient documentation any day.
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Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
"I give tons more respect to the intellectually honest views of atheists and agnostics like andy or David, than I do to any Christian who either can't formulate logically correct views, denies logical implications, or worse yet can't even see them."
I like this statement very much. We could live in a perfect world subject only to the laws of nature if it wasn't for all those other religions and philosophies messing things up. World peace and harmony would be achieved as long as everyone would consent to the rule of logic, which only true Catholics or true scientists/mathematicians seem to do. Of course, the agnostics and atheists would still go to Hell, but at least we would have a good time together before death. |
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[ QUOTE ] But if you can't even make logical arguments with fellow Christians, then you have no hope of ever persuading thinking non-believers. [/ QUOTE ] Now that's a hoot. Perhaps they should concentrate on non-thinking non-believers? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] And what are the axioms behind your last statement? -Zeno [/ QUOTE ] That it is axiomatic that you have a greater chance to persuade non-thinking individuals to believe in anything. |
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I don't believe any of them have a stranglehold on Truth. but, I don't believe that is the point, either. [/ QUOTE ] Actually that is the point baggins. Because such a belief, i.e. that no denomination possess 100% of the truth has certain logical implications. Mainly for carrying out the great commission of evangelizing. Reread my posts above and see if you get it. |
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"I give tons more respect to the intellectually honest views of atheists and agnostics like andy or David, than I do to any Christian who either can't formulate logically correct views, denies logical implications, or worse yet can't even see them." I like this statement very much. We could live in a perfect world subject only to the laws of nature if it wasn't for all those other religions and philosophies messing things up. World peace and harmony would be achieved as long as everyone would consent to the rule of logic, which only true Catholics or true scientists/mathematicians seem to do. Of course, the agnostics and atheists would still go to Hell, but at least we would have a good time together before death. [/ QUOTE ] Did some Christians recently rough you up in the parking lot? |
Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
"I give tons more respect to the intellectually honest views of atheists and agnostics like andy or David, than I do to any Christian who either can't formulate logically correct views, denies logical implications, or worse yet can't even see them."
I like this statement very much. We could live in a perfect world subject only to the laws of nature if it wasn't for all those other religions and philosophies messing things up. World peace and harmony would be achieved as long as everyone would consent to the rule of logic, which only true Catholics or true scientists/mathematicians seem to do. Of course, the agnostics and atheists would still go to Hell, but at least we would have a good time together before death." How much would you charge me to have a debate with Not Ready or udon'tknow mickey? |
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How much would you charge me to have a debate with Not Ready or udon'tknow mickey? [/ QUOTE ] It's no fair offerring to have him to box logical welterweights. |
Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get
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[ QUOTE ] I don't believe any of them have a stranglehold on Truth. but, I don't believe that is the point, either. [/ QUOTE ] Actually that is the point baggins. Because such a belief, i.e. that no denomination possess 100% of the truth has certain logical implications. Mainly for carrying out the great commission of evangelizing. Reread my posts above and see if you get it. [/ QUOTE ] no. it's not. Jesus commanded us to go out and baptize people of all nations in the name of Christ. not in the name of the Catholic church, or the baptist church, or the eastern orthodox church, or the Church of England, or any other denomination. the point is not any one denomination having a stranglehold on Truth. the point is that we know enough to go out and serve and carry out Christ's mission for the church. (now, if we are talking about Catholic church meaning a universal church, and not the Holy Roman Catholic Church following Papal orders and decrees and bishops and dioceses, then we may be closer to agreeing than you might think.) there are many kinds of Truth. we are not called to sit around and ponder intellectual truths all day (at least not solely). we are called to live the Truth of the good news of Jesus Christ, and to love other people as He loves us. I'm talking truth in action. bold, relentless, active truth. not just logical imperatives regarding the minutiae of archaic theological sticking points for ivory tower academics (or even thinking lay people). do you have to be a bible scholar or a master theologian to feed the hungry, take care of the sick and poor, or comfort the hurting people in this world? |
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do you have to be a bible scholar or a master theologian to feed the hungry, take care of the sick and poor, or comfort the hurting people in this world? [/ QUOTE ] Not at all. But you do have to be able to see the logical implications that certain beliefs have in regards to being successful in persuading non-believers to accept the gospel. You really need to reread my original and following posts. Since I know you believe that God expects you to share the faith, then you should also believe that He expects you to try to do it in a way that has the greatest chances for getting non-believers to accept it. Same as maximizing your EV in poker. |
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For a formal debate, I would want an autographed copy of your next book (shipping included) oh god of poker.
BluffTHIS is right, any Catholic who knows his basic apologetics should be able to logically trounce all takers. |
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They tried, but I slew them in the spirit and excorcised their demons as their bodies convulsed and made funny noises. I also cured them of the cancer they never knew they had.
I can do the same for you if you will purchase my next Rapture video. It is sure to happen in 1999, 2001, errr 2006. |
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For a formal debate, I would want an autographed copy of your next book (shipping included) oh god of poker. BluffTHIS is right, any Catholic who knows his basic apologetics should be able to logically trounce all takers. [/ QUOTE ] I havent participated in a while, you guys need me to spell you for a bit. I still have Judaism piece languishing on the back burner. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] |
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Not at all. But you do have to be able to see the logical implications that certain beliefs have in regards to being successful in persuading non-believers to accept the gospel. [/ QUOTE ] God's things, spiritual things, are transmitted from spirit to spirit. Man is a three-fold being: body, soul, and spirit. When God imparts something to us, He imparts it into our spirits. When we receive that and impart it to others we impart it to their spirits. The logical mind is part of a man's soul. The unregenerate man has only his soul to guide him. His carnal, selfish, fleshly soul has had years and years to pull him away from the things of God and set him on paths of folly. You don't try to convince someone from mind to mind. The gospel is not to be accepted and received logically. The currency of every cult from the JW's to the Moonies to the RCC is a twisting of logic to enprison its adherents, a system of thought that builds upon itself brick by brick so that the high walls no longer let Light in, leaving man in a cave of darkness. |
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The currency of every cult from the JW's to the Moonies to the RCC is a twisting of logic to enprison its adherents, a system of thought that builds upon itself brick by brick so that the high walls no longer let Light in, leaving man in a cave of darkness. [/ QUOTE ] This is an excellent point. Many if not all heresies are the result of applying "logic" to some doctrine of Scripture. I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that the logic of a finite, imperfect creature is likely to be finite and imperfect. It's only logical to believe that. Our sight isn't perfect. Our hearing isn't perfect. Our emotions aren't perfect. Our strength isn't perfect. Our will isn't perfect. But our logic is? To deny the perfection of humanity's ability to reason isn't to deny the ultimate validty of perfect reason (which belongs to God) or the usefulness of reason so far as we are able any more than to deny we can see perfectly is to deny the sight we do have is useful and accurate as far as it goes. Because we can't reason it all out perfectly God communicates to us. So we naturally then take His communication and subject it to the test of human reason. Why does He put up with us? |
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] do you have to be a bible scholar or a master theologian to feed the hungry, take care of the sick and poor, or comfort the hurting people in this world? [/ QUOTE ] Not at all. But you do have to be able to see the logical implications that certain beliefs have in regards to being successful in persuading non-believers to accept the gospel. You really need to reread my original and following posts. Since I know you believe that God expects you to share the faith, then you should also believe that He expects you to try to do it in a way that has the greatest chances for getting non-believers to accept it. Same as maximizing your EV in poker. [/ QUOTE ] I still pretty much disagree with you. I mean, I'm sure He wants me to share my faith in a way that is not ostracizing or insulting or hurting to other people. beyond that, I believe that the Holy Spirit intervenes at some point and takes hold of a person's heart and transforms it. now, I don't have a problem discussing theology. nor do i think that it doesn't matter how we present the gospel of Christ to people. but, at the same time, it's not MY job to convince anyone. my job is to "feed the hungry, take care of the sick and poor, and comfort the hurting people in this world." the Spirit that God gave us to guide us will do the rest. |
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but, at the same time, it's not MY job to convince anyone. [/ QUOTE ] "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Matt. 28:19-20 So it is YOUR job after all. And if you try to convince them to take the gospel on faith, but also that the beliefs of the particular denomination you belong to are not 100% correct, then your chances for success are lessened, which is the point of my original post in this thread. |
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[ QUOTE ] The currency of every cult from the JW's to the Moonies to the RCC is a twisting of logic to enprison its adherents, a system of thought that builds upon itself brick by brick so that the high walls no longer let Light in, leaving man in a cave of darkness. [/ QUOTE ] This is an excellent point. Many if not all heresies are the result of applying "logic" to some doctrine of Scripture. I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that the logic of a finite, imperfect creature is likely to be finite and imperfect. It's only logical to believe that. Our sight isn't perfect. Our hearing isn't perfect. Our emotions aren't perfect. Our strength isn't perfect. Our will isn't perfect. But our logic is? To deny the perfection of humanity's ability to reason isn't to deny the ultimate validty of perfect reason (which belongs to God) or the usefulness of reason so far as we are able any more than to deny we can see perfectly is to deny the sight we do have is useful and accurate as far as it goes. Because we can't reason it all out perfectly God communicates to us. So we naturally then take His communication and subject it to the test of human reason. Why does He put up with us? [/ QUOTE ] He was talking in his post about "twisted" logic, which isn't true logic. And as I said before, logic is a branch of mathematics and knowledge. And it isn't just human logic, but LOGIC. Just like mathematics in general. God made mathematics and logic, and if you hold a set of beliefs that is logically contradictory to itself in some ways, then that indicates those beliefs to be less than 100% true, and thus not fully reflective of God's truth. And heresies have not sprung from misapplied logic, but from a literalist out-of-context interpretation of various passages in scripture, which shows not only the fallacy of such methods of interpretation, but the consequences of not having an authoritative interpreter. The height of such illogic is what I said in another post about maintaining that the reformation changed catholic doctrine which was in error, but that the new doctrines aren't 100% correct either, and that you expect non-believers to buy that new set of doctrines. |
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And it isn't just human logic [/ QUOTE ] 1 Cor 3:20 "(A)THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." |
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I can't begin to say how pathetic it is if you maintain that you can hold a set of beliefs in which some are logically contradictory of each other, but still maintain that you are correct in holding those beliefs. How hard is it for you to understand that this doesn't most likely mean that true doctrine is only "apparently" illogical because human reasoning is incapable of undertanding it fully, but rather that many of your particular interpretations of scripture are just wrong?
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I can't begin to say how pathetic it is if you maintain that you can hold a set of beliefs in which some are logically contradictory of each other, but still maintain that you are correct in holding those beliefs [/ QUOTE ] I never said this. [ QUOTE ] but rather that many of your particular interpretations of scripture are just wrong [/ QUOTE ] What you meant to say is you don't understand them according to your logic. |
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What you meant to say is you don't understand them according to your logic. [/ QUOTE ] How can you claim to be able to though? You have already stated that you don't expect to find perfection in any denomination's doctrine, with the logical implication that you feel comfortable only having an X% grasp of true doctrine. If all you mean is that no denomination matches your own interpretations, then you should start yet another protestant denomination. At least then you could claim its doctrines were 100% correct and be more likely to convince non-believers of same. And as far as my not understanding your protestant interpretations according to my logic, you have also stated that you can find no logical contradictions in my views, so I see no reason to doubt the understanding of my particular denomination, the catholic church. If you think that true doctrine and true logical implications of those doctrines can be in conflict, or that true doctrine and true science can conflict, then how can you claim to be intellectually honest? God asks faith of us, which means trusting in Him even if there is not complete evidence. He doesn't ask us to check our brain at the door to the church and accept logically contradictory doctrines as a part of a set of beliefs. If you think otherwise, then you really don't believe that God = truth, because He doesn't contradict Himself. |
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If all you mean is that no denomination matches your own interpretations, then you should start yet another protestant denomination. [/ QUOTE ] Which denomination has complete doctrinal perfection? If you say RC, please state the year and day this occurred. [ QUOTE ] you have also stated that you can find no logical contradictions in my views, [/ QUOTE ] When? [ QUOTE ] If you think that true doctrine and true logical implications of those doctrines can be in conflict [/ QUOTE ] I never said this. [ QUOTE ] He doesn't ask us to check our brain at the door to the church [/ QUOTE ] I did say this. [ QUOTE ] and accept logically contradictory doctrines as a part of a set of beliefs. [/ QUOTE ] I never said this. [ QUOTE ] He doesn't contradict Himself. [/ QUOTE ] I did say this. |
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