AA
 

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (11 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Re: AA
 

I can see waiting for the turn to raise here, since the board is completely drawless. But why you are not raising the turn is beyond me.

EDIT: Going for overcalls? I don't think I like it with possible straight and flush draws out there.

Re: AA
 

Awesome.

Re: AA
 

I think this is a great line. You are either WA/WB. If you raise the turn, there is a great possibilty that the you will chase out alot of hands that you are dominating and you may get 3-bet if UTG does have a 3. The 2 overcalls on the turn and the 1 on the river make your line perfect IMO.

Re: AA
 

this is pretty interesting. I obviously wouldn't play it this way but I can see why you did. On the flop you are pretty likely to be ahead, but everyone else only has 2 outs max, maybe 3-4 if they have an 8 with backdoor flush draw. Usually everyone else will be drawing practically dead. Plus if someone has a 3 you can save some.

I would raise the turn, however. It is definitely possible that sb or bb peeled that flop with a hand like 9T or TQ which has a straight draw now. You can make a gutter call incorrectly and get 2 from an OESD. A jack or 8 might also call 2 if the players are loose. The way you played the turn, I would also call the river I think.

Re: AA
 

Sick, but I think I like it.

I would raise the turn myself.

Re: AA
 

I play it the same.

This is a good hand to post. I'm sure you didn't have any doubts about how you played this, but certainly many posters would have raised impulsively somewhere in this hand.

Re: AA
 

Why not raise the river?

I also think its important not just to state "WA/WB" as a justification for passive play. If "WA" is 98% of the time, and "WB" is 2% of the time, clearly a raise is needed. Not to say that that is necessarily the case here, but I think the "WA/WB" gets overused around here on occasion.

Re: AA
 

I don't understand this hand at all. I understand the concepts involved, but I guess I don't believe that going for overcalls on the turn and river is more profitable than raising the turn or river.

Krishan

Re: AA
 

I´ve changed my mind.

I think slowplaying the flop is fine as the 3 guys behind are drawing very slim, either runner runner or two outs, since the board is paired low, so letting them in for one bet is good.

On the turn though, UTG will very likely call a raise, so you will make more if SB or BB coldcalls. I think this will happen often enough to raise it up. Either XXd,Jx, T9, 8x or some pocket pair, praying that you have just big diamonds or maybe just praying.

Re: AA
 

We need a read on utg. Unless he is a super donk, he never ever has a 3 there. His relative position is just too perfect for a CR to bet out.

Re: AA
 

Kind of sexy.

Obviously you think the extra overcalls make up for the rather small risk someone will catch up. I think you are right that the risk of someone catching up is small because of the paired board in comparison the extra bets you are gaining. Raising the turn would not chase a flush or an openended straight draw out anyway - the only real risk is if you are letting the gut shots in too cheaply but again the chance of that is small.

An added benefit is that if utg is so loose he can have a 3 he gets no chance to 3-bet.

Re: AA
 

nh tommy.

i do think a river raise is better tho. there is a good chance that one of the overcallers will call 2 cold here with many pairs.

Re: AA
 

great post.

Not sure if I could of resisted the turn raise, but I think what you may be giving up by not raising possible str8/flush draws is more than compensated for those few times that a 3 is out there.

If the turn is an A or a 3, do you still go for overcalls?

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think what you may be giving up by not raising possible str8/flush draws is more than compensated for those few times that a 3 is out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You are going to get hammered if a 3 is out either way. And it's not likely for a 3 to be out.

Krishan

Re: AA
 

Seems like a river raise is in order. At that point, going for overcalls isn't going to net you any more than a raise since it's highly likely at least one, maybe both, of the overcallers will simply fold as they missed hitting their cards.

Re: AA
 

I think the only street you can even consider raising is the turn. And I really dont mind just calling.

Re: AA
 

"I think the only street you can even consider raising is the turn. And I really dont mind just calling."

If I get checkraised on the turn and UTG just calls I'm threebetting. Does that add or detract?

-Michael

Re: AA
 

what i dont get is how you are playing 20/40 one moment and then 5/10 another. thats confusing.

as far as the hand i raise that harmless river 100% of the time, only because you aint getting overcalls from busted draws.

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not raise the river?

I also think its important not just to state "WA/WB" as a justification for passive play. If "WA" is 98% of the time, and "WB" is 2% of the time, clearly a raise is needed. Not to say that that is necessarily the case here, but I think the "WA/WB" gets overused around here on occasion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this. And in the hand posted, I would have raised the river, if not the turn.

Re: AA
 

"I also think its important not just to state "WA/WB" as a justification for passive play. If "WA" is 98% of the time, and "WB" is 2% of the time, clearly a raise is needed. Not to say that that is necessarily the case here, but I think the "WA/WB" gets overused around here on occasion."

I think the chances of UTG having me beat are extremely slim. I also think there is a significant chance his hand can't call a raise at anytime. There is some slight chance that one of the blinds has me beat, probably more of a chance than UTG, but this is very unlikely.

-Michael

Re: AA
 

"what i dont get is how you are playing 20/40 one moment and then 5/10 another. thats confusing."

I play 20-40 because I've had 100 bet downswings six of nine days and it's better than playing blackjack.

-Michael

Re: AA
 

i am still confused...so you play the 20 because you like the variance there?

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not raise the river?

I also think its important not just to state "WA/WB" as a justification for passive play. If "WA" is 98% of the time, and "WB" is 2% of the time, clearly a raise is needed. Not to say that that is necessarily the case here, but I think the "WA/WB" gets overused around here on occasion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, WA/WB should be used as a justification to be less worried about free cards. you don't have to be worried about free cards as much if you're either way ahead, or way behind, but not in the middle. if you have the nuts, for example, then it's vacuously true that you're WA or WB and you don't care about free cards.

there aren't many hands that could exist where you're either WAY ahead 98% of the time, but WAY behind 2% of the time. the best thing I can think of is a flush on a low double paired board. a lot of the time you aren't sure whether you're WA or WB (the percentages are close to even, as in the classic weak A versus a PF 3-bet on an A high board example), and that's when the passive line comes in, to max wins/min losses. but the concept of not caring as much about free cards comes into play whenever you're WA/WB, regardless of the percentage that you're either.

But of course, the EV of how you play the hand depends on so much more than whether you're WA/WB, especially multiway where you have so many more options...will they call two cold? will they 3 bet a worse hand? will they fold straightaway but continue to bluff me? can I trap anyone?

now you would want to raise in this hand for two reasons:
1) protect your hand
2) maximize the money that goes into the pot

all that WA/WB means is that 1) is not as much a concern, and I don't think anyone here could argue that we need to charge any draws on this flop, even pocket pairs aren't getting odds if we don't spew like a maniac on the turn + riv.

so now we need to decide if not raising accomplishes 2). I think this was the point you had in mind when you mentioned overuse of WA/WB, that WA/WB has nothing to do with this aspect of the hand. I don't think it necessarily means that a raise is needed, that's a seperate issue IMO. I will agree with you that it doesn't necessarily dictate passivity, though it does lessen your vulnerability to free cards

Re: AA
 

"i am still confused...so you play the 20 because you like the variance there?"

After about six hours of 8-tabling the drag of being even or slightly down every day is too much, but I still need to put in two more hours. Luckily I win 80% of my showdowns in the 20 so my tilt is paying off.

-Michael

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
"I also think its important not just to state "WA/WB" as a justification for passive play. If "WA" is 98% of the time, and "WB" is 2% of the time, clearly a raise is needed. Not to say that that is necessarily the case here, but I think the "WA/WB" gets overused around here on occasion."

I think the chances of UTG having me beat are extremely slim. I also think there is a significant chance his hand can't call a raise at anytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure you won't get a crying call if the river is raised.

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
"what i dont get is how you are playing 20/40 one moment and then 5/10 another. thats confusing."

I play 20-40 because I've had 100 bet downswings six of nine days and it's better than playing blackjack.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, play blackjack!

Re: AA
 

"I'm not so sure you won't get a crying call if the river is raised."

Neither am I, but what are we putting him on? Honestly, most guys will give up and check that river with an 8 or something like 77. I don't know why, but they do (this is 5-10). Especially guys who limp UTG. So I think when he bets the river it's even more likely he's completely bluffing.

-Michael

Re: AA
 

you 8 table for 8 hours ??!?!

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
you 8 table for 8 hours ??!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is absurd and likely unhealthy and with a high chance of burnout. Go get shock therapy for blackjack and you'll only have to play 4 hours a day.

Krishan

Re: AA
 

"Yeah, this is absurd and likely unhealthy and with a high chance of burnout. Go get shock therapy for blackjack and you'll only have to play 4 hours a day."

This might be true, but I don't see why it has to be.

-Michael

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only street you can even consider raising is the turn. And I really dont mind just calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Yeah, this is absurd and likely unhealthy and with a high chance of burnout. Go get shock therapy for blackjack and you'll only have to play 4 hours a day."

This might be true, but I don't see why it has to be.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, it's not absolutely true. I've played 6K hands in a day and am capable of 8-tabling (not at 10/20 though). I've put in 12+ hours in a day. I could probably keep it up for a while but I don't think it's a good idea if you want to play poker in any sort of semi-enjoyable manner.

I don't mean to be condescending or insulting. I have a lot of respect for you but I can't imagine multitabling for that long is a good long term situation.

What is playing blackjack like exactly? I can't find the allure.

Krishan

Re: AA
 

"What is playing blackjack like exactly? I can't find the allure."

Haha, I should start a new thread, but it's extremely odd. When I first started gambling at 19, it was blackjack that attracted me. But I quickly got into poker and left blackjack behind completely as a -EV game.

I went 200k hands at 6-max without ever having a 200 bet losing streak. Then I had a 500 bet losing streak and picked up blackjack. I started playing every time I would have a losing day. Unfortuantely, or fortunately, I am up $ in my life playing blackjack. I really don't know why I picked it up. I would start taking days off of poker, then it would be late, I would be upset with myself and thinking, hey, I need to make money today, but there's no time, let's play blackjack for $100 a hand.

Anyways I should not be so honest I think. I can't play blackjack anymore because I owe jason_t $500 every time I play, and that's that. I don't plan on paying him a dime.

-Michael

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]

Anyways I should not be so honest I think. I can't play blackjack anymore because I owe jason_t $500 every time I play, and that's that. I don't plan on paying him a dime.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is great. I'm glad jason_t is helping you.

Krishan

Re: AA
 

"This is great. I'm glad jason_t is helping you."

This is debatable. Did you see his response in this thread? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

-Michael

Re: AA
 

100 BB downswings 6 of 9...

Suffered my first 100 BB downer last night and felt terrible. No consolation to you, but based on your experience I now feel a whole lot better.

Re: AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
"This is great. I'm glad jason_t is helping you."

This is debatable. Did you see his response in this thread? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm glad... uhhh

with friends like that ....

Krishan

Re: AA
 

You characterize Blackjack as a -EV game. [Perhaps you meant just online blackjack).

But it is not. I've made $70,000+ over the years periodically cardcounting good blackjack games (brick and mortar)

Re: AA
 

"But it is not. I've made $70,000+ over the years periodically cardcounting good blackjack games (brick and mortar)"

That's awesome. I don't count cards. Maybe I should. But no, seriously, I just want to stay away from the game altogether.

-Michael