Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

No notes and obviously just posted, so no reads.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

<font color="blue">Dumb time to defend? I expected the blinds to be loose at a 1/2 table and expected at least one overlimp. Even in the off chance that they both fold, I'm still no worse than 4.5:1.</font>

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls.

<font color=" blue">Dumb time to fight back? Does anyone call and raise a low turn? Or just dump it?</font>

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 thinks for a long time and bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

Preflop I like unless someone convinces me otherwise. We're usually getting ~6-1 I'd guess. Only thing that would deter me from calling is the fact we're not closing the action preflop and if it ends up multiway which we probably want we won't be closing the action if we pick up a marginal draw.

Postflop I peel the flop and fold UI if bet into on the turn, bet if he checks depending on the card.

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

I think the preflop call is fine.

I'm not sure about the flop raise. One good thing about it is that maybe there's some chance of getting MP3 to fold a better hand like 99. Also, you are a (slight) favorite over hands like AQ and AJ at this point. Anyway, I'd probably just call, but the raise does have potential benefits.

The turn card is a pretty crappy one. I think folding to the donk-bet is probably best.

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

So we bluff raise an unknown on a two overcard flop after he's lead into us after an already suspect preflop semi-cold call? That's the line here?

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

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Anyway, I'd probably just call, but the raise does have potential benefits.

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What would you do if you call and he bets a blank turn?

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

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So we bluff raise an unknown on a two overcard flop after he's lead into us after an already suspect preflop semi-cold call? That's the line here?

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Nope. I was value-raising a typical 1/2er with a pair HU after he continuation-bets a blind steal. But semantics gets us nowhere. What line would you take?

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

Preflop call seems fine
Dont like the flop raise. To likely to have hit MP3.
I would wate for the turn and muck unimproved.
Knoss

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

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Anyway, I'd probably just call, but the raise does have potential benefits.

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What would you do if you call and he bets a blank turn?

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I would probably call again.

This is based on the idea that (1) if MP3 has AJ/AQ or even Ax/QJ, there's a good chance he's firing with it again, and (2) I could still improve.

If (1) isn't so likely at 1/2, then my plan of calling down unimproved so long as the board doesn't start looking worse begins to look more dubious. (I haven't played 1/2 full in months and am not sure what to expect from an unknown at that limit. At 3/6, though, I would probably call down on turn and river blanks, while expecting to lose if MP3 actually bet the river.)

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

id probably just call on the flop, and fold UI.
But, im ok with the raise too. I think you have to fold the turn (like you did) though.

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

I like to make this play against a loose/aggressive passive. Maybe not on this particular board, but if that T was changed into, say, a 5, I raise the flop. Then, on the turn if he bets, I fold. If he checks, I bet, and fold to a check-raise.

But, I wouldn't make this move without any reads. Only if he is a loose raiser that doesn't like to be played back at, and prides himself on "big laydowns."

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

Middle position could have so many hands that it's a debatable raise (on the flop) but probably will win enough to justify it. Turn fold looks solid as I don't see you winning this hand without another way to win like a backdoor flush draw.

[ QUOTE ]
No notes and obviously just posted, so no reads.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

<font color="blue">Dumb time to defend? I expected the blinds to be loose at a 1/2 table and expected at least one overlimp. Even in the off chance that they both fold, I'm still no worse than 4.5:1.</font>

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls.

<font color=" blue">Dumb time to fight back? Does anyone call and raise a low turn? Or just dump it?</font>

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 thinks for a long time and bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

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Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

I'm fine with preflop. It sucks that neither blind came along.

I'm also fine with raising the flop. Peeling would be okay too, but when you consider that villain is betting this flop 100% of the time whether he hit or not, I think you're ahead often enough to stick in a value raise and take control of the hand.

The turn fold is easy, especially given your play on the flop. Note that if you had merely peeled on the flop this would be a somewhat tougher laydown. When you show strength on the flop and *then* get donkbet, it's easier to get away from this one. (Don't get me wrong. If you had just called the flop I would still vote for folding the turn, but one hidden benefit to raising the flop is that you can dump your hand with more confidence later on if villain plays back).

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

Preflop is good.
Flop: Reads are important. Raising is better than calling because the hand plays much easier in any situation on the turn.

Fold the turn.

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

I like jrz's analysis on this one. I was thinking the same thing.

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

3 bet preflop.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

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3 bet preflop.


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how low do you go when you 3 bet an LP opener? 78s seems a little crazy. Does it matter about your read on the blinds. I have been messing around with this. Don't you want some read or numbers on the opener before you 3 bet him?

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

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3 bet preflop.

-DeathDonkey

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Why? Like OP said, he wanted the blinds in there, why try and make this heads up?

I'm not in total disagreemant with you, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

My thought on 3 betting preflop would be to take control of the hand, buy the button (which I think has little value in this spot), possible advertizing (first impressions only come once), and maybe some fold equity.

Why I don't like 3 betting is you could be HU in a smallish pot knocking out the blinds, a cap wouldn't be good IMO, and you could see a flop like that.

Anybody else?

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

There is no expectation to get a multiway pot. If the choice is between seeing a flop two ways or three ways I want two ways with the blinds in dead money every time. This hand isn't a big dog to hands besides overpairs and you have position and if you 3 bet, initiative.

Put it another way, why call his raise? You feel given the price you are offered your hand will not fair too poorly against his range of raising hands. Fold equity and buying the button are both very good reasons, don't dismiss them so quickly. Also folding preflop is a legitimate option. I would say I would 3 bet any hand I am going to play here based on the likelihood of a 2 or 3 way flop and my good position on just about everyone.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

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Why? Like OP said, he wanted the blinds in there, why try and make this heads up?

I'm not in total disagreemant with you, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

My thought on 3 betting preflop would be to take control of the hand, buy the button (which I think has little value in this spot), possible advertizing (first impressions only come once), and maybe some fold equity.

Why I don't like 3 betting is you could be HU in a smallish pot knocking out the blinds, a cap wouldn't be good IMO, and you could see a flop like that.

Anybody else?


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Since he is opening in LP we can lower his raising standards some. Say he is coming in with JQ or JT. Now we 3bet pf, he is going to call thinking we have a good (better) hand. Say the flop comes A39. He checks, we bet, he folds. I think it is important to have a read on the pfr first, but I think this play works a large number of the time.

One more thing to note, is that our hand is less likely to be dominated by hands he would open with.

I would like to hear Death Donkey's thoughts.

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

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Put it another way, why call his raise? You feel given the price you are offered your hand will not fair too poorly against his range of raising hands

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good points. You may have odds to make this call +ev, but, the pfr has the initiative, so if the flop comes A39, and he bets, what option do we have, fold.

I like to fold pf, or raise. Taking the initiative is very important.

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

Me too, except for the part about folding the turn after a hypothetical flop call.

Also, is it my imagination, or is it never a bluff when somebody "thinks for a long time before betting" on the turn?

Maybe you can lower his raising standards after he opens from MP1, or maybe not....this is kinda tough without a read.

Re: Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair
 

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Maybe you can lower his raising standards after he opens from MP1, or maybe not....this is kinda tough without a read.


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It was MP3, which is better than MP1

but yea a read is really important.