10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Button ($2410.50)
Hero ($2638.50)
BB ($4588)
UTG ($2559)
MP ($2000)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $50</font>, BB calls $40.

Flop: ($120) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $118</font>, BB calls $118.

Turn: ($356) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $300</font>, BB calls $300.

River: ($956) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero?

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

invites a bluff?

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

In fact basically everyone is going to say check so I'll move on.

River: ($956) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets $600, Villain raises to $1700, Hero?

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

This one feels a lot different than the hand that you posted earlier. I think that you are going to see the nuts, or close to it, pretty often here.

If Villain made this play with a set of 2s, he is either an evil genius or a total donkey. Unless you think that he is one or the other, I vote for a fold.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

I call...

Im guessing he would raise the turn with 10 9 and a flush? It just seems like a missed flush draw more than 10 9 or a flush.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Button ($2410.50)
Hero ($2638.50)
BB ($4588)
UTG ($2559)
MP ($2000)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $50</font>, BB calls $40.

Flop: ($120) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $118</font>, BB calls $118.

Turn: ($356) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $300</font>, BB calls $300.

River: ($956) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop, I usually raise more here, to $70 or $80, but that's just me.

Flop and turn look perfect. If he got there on the turn w/ 910, so be it, you're still drawing live, and I think you've got him crushed way more often than he has a straight or flush.

River is obviously the interesting street; I see a couple possibilities. One is to bet. You aren't folding anything that you beat, but you just might induce a strong jack, two pair, a smaller set or an overpair to call a bet. A $300-$400-ish bet might induce a call from the weaker made hands in his likely range, but it also might induce a big bluff raise from a naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] that missed. Of course, he's also raising a flopped flush, and probably also a turned straight, so value-betting might leave you in a precarious spot. A pot-sized bet screams strength, and would probably only get called by a smaller set or an overpair amongst the hands you're beating, if that. An overbet/open push may let him make a thin call, putting you on the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or air, and also precludes him from raising you on the river and putting you in a tough spot. Of course, a push isn't going to fold any hands that have you beat, so I'm not super wild about that option either.

Second, you can check-call. I'm not sure if this is weak-tight or not, since you and villain both have plenty left behind, but I've certainly gotten burned in situations like this by treating a set like the nuts and ignoring the very real possibility that villain flopped a flush. I guess it probably depends quite a bit upon a read from villain. This certainly is your best option if villain has the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or air or whatever, but also leaves money on the table from hands like a strong jack w/ a big spaid that would likely call one more street but that won't bet.

I was also considering a CR on the river as a potential third option, but I think I'd like this idea a lot more if the table was fuller, and this wasn't a blind v. blind hand, so that villain's holding would likely be a bit more defined. I actually don't see a ton of value in a CR on this river now that I think about it in that villain is folding everything we beat once we CR, and we're effectively paying off his stronger made hands by doing so. On the other hand, however, some tricky villains might interpret a river CR as a bluff, and make a really thin call . . .

So I guess I'm pretty torn between check-calling and betting, and for some reason I really don't like a value-bettish sized lead, or a pot-sized bet, so that leaves an overbet/push? (I actually started typing this post a while ago, and just came back to finish it, and saw the river action you've since posted. This is exactly the crappy situation I would be afraid of getting myself into by making a bet that size; he could be making that raise w/ a decent range of hands, some of which you're beating, and some of which you're behind).

I'm not convinced that check-calling is right, but I do think that if you're gonna bet, you either have to be ready to call any size raise, or bet enough that you're committing your stack.

I could, of course, be waaaaaaay off the mark here.

-neon.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

It's late and I'm off to bed. I agree with a lot of your post; note that it's PL though.

I'll update the thread in the morning. Thanks again.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

I think check/call river is superior for obvious reasons. As played, I think you can find a fold.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

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I think check/call river is superior for obvious reasons.

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Is it really *that* obvious that villain has either a hand like the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or a better made hand than ours, and not a hand w/ which he'll call one more bet on the river but won't bet himself?

I'm not saying that I prefer betting, as there's really no bet Yeti can make that will leave him in a comfortable situation if villain raises pot, but I'm just not nearly as confident as you that checking is the best option here. I understand that checking allows us to exercise pot control, making it easier to get to a showdown, and may induce villain to bluff a hand such as the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or air. I just also think there are lots of hands villain could have (a strong jack, esp. w/ a big spade, an overpair, a smaller set, or a weird two pair) that we'd be leaving money on the table against by checking the river.

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As played, I think you can find a fold.

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Hmmmm. I think I might call way too much, but I think I make a crying call here.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

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I'm not convinced that check-calling is right, but I do think that if you're gonna bet, you either have to be ready to call any size raise, or bet enough that you're committing your stack.


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Afterwards I began to agree 100% with this statement.

At the time it seemed an easy fold, others agreed with me. I folded. Villain proudly showed KsKd. What's sick is it seems obvious he thought it was the best hand.

Gah.

The thing is, would he really slowplay a flopped flush on the turn? Even the nut flush? If we assume he would only just call with the nut flush and raise the rest, that is such a tiny range of hands - perhaps the chance of a bluff on this river is a lot greater than I realise.

Pretty annoying hand. I still think there is tons of value in a bet.

After the first reply I realised I had posted 2 HU middle set hands. This was coincidental although I realise some will try to use this as justification for going broke in the other.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

i came here cuase i wanted to think about this hand before posting, cause its pretty effing tough. i started to post yesterday, but wasnt sure what i thought.
ill say that i think youre 600 bet is perfect and check/calling is horrible.
when i first read i thought, bet 600, duh... DONT CHECK AND GIVE HIM A FREE SHOWDOWN!
whether to call that raise, i dunno. bigbigbig laydown there. undecided. really wish you hadnt posted results.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
i came here cuase i wanted to think about this hand before posting, cause its pretty effing tough. i started to post yesterday, but wasnt sure what i thought.
ill say that i think youre 600 bet is perfect and check/calling is horrible.
when i first read i thought, bet 600, duh... DONT CHECK AND GIVE HIM A FREE SHOWDOWN!
whether to call that raise, i dunno. bigbigbig laydown there. undecided. really wish you hadnt posted results.

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fs dude I gave you a day [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. it looked like the thread was dead. i have another decent one which i'll post now.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I think check/call river is superior for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it really *that* obvious that villain has either a hand like the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or a better made hand than ours, and not a hand w/ which he'll call one more bet on the river but won't bet himself?

I'm not saying that I prefer betting, as there's really no bet Yeti can make that will leave him in a comfortable situation if villain raises pot, but I'm just not nearly as confident as you that checking is the best option here. I understand that checking allows us to exercise pot control, making it easier to get to a showdown, and may induce villain to bluff a hand such as the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or air. I just also think there are lots of hands villain could have (a strong jack, esp. w/ a big spade, an overpair, a smaller set, or a weird two pair) that we'd be leaving money on the table against by checking the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If hero checks, villain is going to bet most of the hands you name on the river. 2 pair, overpair, smaller set, these are all going to bet. So is a flush, so is air. About the only check behind hand that villain would have called Yeti's bet with is a decent jack with a spade, and that should be compensated by the number of times villain bets with air.

Pot control is the other key. As the hand played out, Yeti was forced to lay down the best hand. By check/autocalling the river, you are never bluffed out.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
In fact basically everyone is going to say check so I'll move on.

River: ($956) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets $600, Villain raises to $1700, Hero?

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I bet more and probably feel sick, but call a raise. Underbetting like this, I call quickly. I will often go for a turn checkraise.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

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In fact basically everyone is going to say check so I'll move on.

River: ($956) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets $600, Villain raises to $1700, Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet more and probably feel sick, but call a raise. Underbetting like this, I call quickly. I will often go for a turn checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of people in these games are getting pretty wise to turn check-raises, and the vast majority will check behind mediocre holdings. Obviously if I'd known he had KK i would have checked.

Thanks for all the comments.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

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Obviously if I'd known he had KK i would have checked.

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Why?

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

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Obviously if I'd known he had KK i would have checked.

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Why?

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Because he is obviously going to bet it on the turn and call a raise.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

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Obviously if I'd known he had KK i would have checked.

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If you knew he had KK, not checking the turn would not have been your biggest mistake.

Re: 10/20 - 88 in blind battle
 

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[ QUOTE ]
In fact basically everyone is going to say check so I'll move on.

River: ($956) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets $600, Villain raises to $1700, Hero?

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I bet more and probably feel sick, but call a raise. Underbetting like this, I call quickly. I will often go for a turn checkraise.

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isnt that your leak?