Blind Defense (In General)
 

this is a post I never made but saved in a text file back in May. I wanted to run some hand histories through the converter but never got a chance to. pasting it because it might spark a decent discussion


Out of position, without initiative, and holding a marginal hand, blind defense situations are probably the easiest way to spew chips all over the place. I think a lot of people have problems with it, including myself.

I recently went through my recent blind defense hands and noticed that I was really getting manhandled. So I want to state some goals and post some hands, and hopefully we can all get better at defending.

Note: I don't want see the term "pot odds" referred to preflop play once in this thread. it's a pet peeve of mine. In most cases, they don't apply

Problems:
- We don't have initiative (unless we're 3-betting)
- We're out of position
- we often have a weak or marginal hand

Advantages:
- We're in for one bet already, so it only costs one more
- Headsup, high card strength matters less, as a pair of 6s will win almost as much as a pair of 9s. As a result we're rarely much of an underdog.
- We (hopefully) have an edge on our opponents.

Solutions:
- To combat a lack of initiative, we can 3-bet preflop or check raise or weak lead the flop. I don't really like the weak lead, especially if you're weak.
- We need to get to showdown as often as we can. This is is citical in making sure you win close to as much as you should. For example, if you have 54 against QJ, you'll win 37% of the time hot and cold, but if you're checking and folding the flop 90% of the time, then you're obviously going to win less than 10% of the time.
- Along the same lines we need to win a lot with the worst hand without a showdown to make up for us folding too much.
- There's no solution for being out of position.
- We can't fold too much, or we're just throwing away money by calling preflop.
- All the while, we need to realize that we only invested 1 SB preflop to protect a 2.5 (or 2.4) SB pot. If we end up spewing postflop, it'll end up costing us a lot more, and it's just not worth it. The goal is to outplay our opponents postflop, while not letting them make auto-money by raising our blind.

So now that we have a bunch of goals with no real direction, I'll post some hands that I'm not sure of. I probably misplayed most of them, which is good, because there shouldn't be too many "standard. next" type posts. Critiques of misplayed hands often make for the most informative threads.

Before I start, I think it's important to mention that since we want to make money postflop, it's probably best to avoid TAG's because even though they're less likely to be unpaired (meaning we're less often a big underdog), they will make less mistakes

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

my solution is that I started 3betting pretty much every hand that I defend with. having the initiative helps, ill let you guys know how it goes... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

edit-btw, so far in sept. im winning .05/100 in my sb and only losing .03/100 in my BB. I must be onto something!

<font color="white"> no need to flame, im obviously running super hot and making a joke </font>

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Advantages:
- We're in for one bet already, so it only costs one more


[/ QUOTE ]

so you mean, we have good pot odds? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

Positionally, I am still losing more money in the BB than I would like. I feel comfortable in terms of proper tightness/pfr everywhere else, but damn BB is always (.05) more than I want it to be.

Btw, I like the showdown point. Definitely have to get to SD in the BB more, couldnt agree more. The key is tailoring your turn aggression version certain individuals.

So post away.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

the problem with this is you're going to lose the respectability of your 3-bets, and a lot of players cap very lightly since a 3-bet in a steal situation is perceived as just a resteal.

I think you're getting carried away, but just from those few hands we played against each other a month or so ago. you were really overzealous with your stealing (stealing with Q4s and stealing/capping with K3s). it's nice to have initiative but it has its pitfalls. I also don't know how light you're going. are you saying if the button raises and you're the BB you're raising more than you're calling?

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Advantages:
- We're in for one bet already, so it only costs one more


[/ QUOTE ]

so you mean, we have good pot odds? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


I stand by my hatred for preflop pot odds. the point you quoted was dumb and/or misworded

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
edit-btw, so far in sept. im winning .05/100 in my sb and only losing .03/100 in my BB. I must be onto something!

[/ QUOTE ]

you are clearly a god among men


[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

I think playing the blinds well, particularly the big blind, is inevitably going to result in some hands that just make you feel like a complete piece of crap at the end. That doesn't mean you messed up, though.

-Michael

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before I start, I think it's important to mention that since we want to make money postflop, it's probably best to avoid TAG's because even though they're less likely to be unpaired (meaning we're less often a big underdog), they will make less mistakes

[/ QUOTE ]
Not so sure about this. TAGs, especially the weak tight kind, are sometimes more easily manipulated than the others which makes eaiser it to take the pot down without a made hand on certain boards.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Positionally, I am still losing more money in the BB than I would like. I feel comfortable in terms of proper tightness/pfr everywhere else, but damn BB is always (.05) more than I want it to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is an average range of numbers that a decent player should be losing out of the SB and BB? I have no clue.

Haupt_234

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before I start, I think it's important to mention that since we want to make money postflop, it's probably best to avoid TAG's because even though they're less likely to be unpaired (meaning we're less often a big underdog), they will make less mistakes

[/ QUOTE ]
Not so sure about this. TAGs, especially the weak tight kind, are sometimes more easily manipulated than the others which makes eaiser it to take the pot down without a made hand on certain boards.

[/ QUOTE ]



that's a good point. I wonder what fraction of our profit comes from taking down pots without a showdown vs winning at showdown

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

I think about .14 for the BB and .05 for SB ? Not sure tho but I think I saw that quite a few. Kiddo had a post on it a while back.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think playing the blinds well, particularly the big blind, is inevitably going to result in some hands that just make you feel like a complete piece of crap at the end. That doesn't mean you messed up, though.


[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. agreat player once told me "that if you don't feel like a moron sometimes, you aren't playing right"

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]

What is an average range of numbers that a decent player should be losing out of the SB and BB? I have no clue.

[/ QUOTE ]

That could be me. Not great, not yet good, but decent. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
In a 117K sample 5/10 and 10/20:
-0.07 in SB
-0.13 in BB

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
my solution is that I started 3betting pretty much every hand that I defend with. having the initiative helps, ill let you guys know how it goes... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

edit-btw, so far in sept. im winning .05/100 in my sb and only losing .03/100 in my BB. I must be onto something!

<font color="white"> no need to flame, im obviously running super hot and making a joke </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hidden joke aside, I've been meaning to try this for awhile now. Not 100% of the time I defend, but ~50% perhaps. Sthief is worried that once they catch on, they'll start capping, but they aren't going to catch on until you've done it once or twice (unless you 3-bet and end up showing down something really bad). In other words, you can probably get away with it a couple times before you have to slow down . . .

All I know is I hate hate hate it when I steal with my JTo or god knows what and I get 3-bet by the BB and miss the flop. Which I will 2/3rds of the time.

And if I hate it that much when other people do it, it must be good to do to other people. Problem is, I'm not sure what to do after I bet the flop I just missed, and they call or raise . . . bastards. Don't they know I'm representing AA?

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
That could be me. Not great, not yet good, but decent.
In a 117K sample 5/10 and 10/20:
-0.07 in SB
-0.13 in BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you post your blinds positional stats? Or any further info?
Any post flop tactics? Are you loose or tight in blinds etc

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

Ok this is a really basic question but I'm relatively new to shorthand play and blind play is still new and scary. I read somewhere that it's almost never correct to just call a steal raise from the small blind. Generally 3bet or fold (unless you're trapping with a monster). Can anyone shed any light on this? I find myself kinda lost in the SB against a steal.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

Do you hate it more than when he just calls and then CR the flop ?

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok this is a really basic question but I'm relatively new to shorthand play and blind play is still new and scary. I read somewhere that it's almost never correct to just call a steal raise from the small blind. Generally 3bet or fold (unless you're trapping with a monster). Can anyone shed any light on this? I find myself kinda lost in the SB against a steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually you want the hand heads up with the stealer, so if you just call in the small blind, you're giving the big blind good odds to come along cheaply. This is not what you want, so you 3-bet the majority of the time out the small blind in steal situations. This gives you the initiative in the hand, so that when both of you miss the flop, you're more likely to take down the pot. This is not always what you must do, but usually it is correct.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok this is a really basic question but I'm relatively new to shorthand play and blind play is still new and scary. I read somewhere that it's almost never correct to just call a steal raise from the small blind. Generally 3bet or fold (unless you're trapping with a monster). Can anyone shed any light on this? I find myself kinda lost in the SB against a steal.

[/ QUOTE ]


if I were to make a starting hand chart against a raise I wouldn't include any calls from the SB. however, I do call from there a few times per session when the right situation arises.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

I'm curious as to how often you guys 3-bet PF and how often you call/cr. I'm never sure when to do which.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you hate it more than when he just calls and then CR the flop ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a fantastic question . . . were you the guy who linked to an old thread by Nikla re blind wars (I think in that instance he asked why one should bother capping in the SB preflop after the BB 3-bets your SB open-raise, when a flop checkraise would get more respect while investing the same amount of cash)? Same point.

However, I would say that I respect a 3-bet from the big blind more than I respect a flop checkraise, at least when the flop is ragged and the guy doing it is a TAG. When someone 3-bets me from the BB I automatically put him on a strong ace or a good pocket, and am quite annoyed if I find out he had anything but. In other words, I find it annoying, but not suspicious. A flop check-raise, I find both annoying and suspicious (i.e., I might be more likely to play back).

Tough question . . .

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

Great post Sthief.

[ QUOTE ]
- We need to get to showdown as often as we can. This is is citical in making sure you win close to as much as you should. For example, if you have 54 against QJ, you'll win 37% of the time hot and cold, but if you're checking and folding the flop 90% of the time, then you're obviously going to win less than 10% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that not true? It seems it would be OK to fold out 90% of the time if it maximizes our BB's won?

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you hate it more than when he just calls and then CR the flop ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Me and Einbert were looking over this line, and it seems to get the defender in more trouble than it's worth.

Look at it from the stealers point of view: He can bluff 3-bet here, he can 3-bet for value here, he can 3-bet for a free card, he can call and raise the turn, on a bluff or for value.

That flop check-raise is just looking to get abused like Mason's ex-wife. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok this is a really basic question but I'm relatively new to shorthand play and blind play is still new and scary. I read somewhere that it's almost never correct to just call a steal raise from the small blind. Generally 3bet or fold (unless you're trapping with a monster). Can anyone shed any light on this? I find myself kinda lost in the SB against a steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually you want the hand heads up with the stealer, so if you just call in the small blind, you're giving the big blind good odds to come along cheaply. This is not what you want, so you 3-bet the majority of the time out the small blind in steal situations. This gives you the initiative in the hand, so that when both of you miss the flop, you're more likely to take down the pot. This is not always what you must do, but usually it is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind doing that with some weaker hands. having two people call him really slows the stealer down if he misses the flop, and it gives us better odds. Being OOP sucks, but we're kinda in better position than the BB, because we're acting relatively last.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

I'd rather call/cr with a hand that's going to be ahead a lot, and is going to get a decent piece a lot. I think the ideal hand to just call a steal preflop with is one like AKs. AKo isn't so bad either. however there have been times where I've gone check-call check-call check-fold with AK after calling preflop, which always makes me feel like I should be 3-betting

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great post Sthief.

[ QUOTE ]
- We need to get to showdown as often as we can. This is is citical in making sure you win close to as much as you should. For example, if you have 54 against QJ, you'll win 37% of the time hot and cold, but if you're checking and folding the flop 90% of the time, then you're obviously going to win less than 10% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that not true? It seems it would be OK to fold out 90% of the time if it maximizes our BB's won?

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you're reading too deeply into that. it would be ok to fold 90% if we won money but it's a lot harder to win money winning less than 10% of the time. there's no way folding 90% of the time will maximize our profit.

I didn't even read my post before I posted it but I think what I was getting at is that we need to be a little less selective on the flop. if you ahve it, read the SH section in HPFAP. I read it again recently and a lot of it made sense to me. it's not enough to just call enough preflop. you have to call enough on the flop, the turn, and the river. part of this is creating bluff outs. if the flop is 875, then regardless of what you have, check-callign the flop and leading the turn might even turn a profit.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

ok I think I know what I meant. basically he's raising because he thinks his hand is worth 2 bets. our hand doesn't need to be worth 2 bets to call. only one.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
He can bluff 3-bet here

[/ QUOTE ]
And he couldn´t bluffraise if you 3bet preflop ?

[ QUOTE ]
he can 3-bet for value here

[/ QUOTE ]

And he couldn´t raise for value ?

[ QUOTE ]
he can 3-bet for a free card

[/ QUOTE ]

And he couldn´t raise for a free card ?

[ QUOTE ]
he can call and raise the turn, on a bluff or for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

And he couldn´t do that if you 3bet ?

I dont think any of these should make you more apt to 3bet against guys who usually will let you check-raise.

When you check-raise you are getting the same 3 bets as if you 3bet preflop, but you also get to see the flop first and doesn´t give him the option of capping.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

-0.07 in SB
-0.13 in BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you post your blinds positional stats? Or any further info?
Any post flop tactics? Are you loose or tight in blinds etc

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know how to get those screendumps from PT (Someone want to PM me how to do it?). FSB to steal 87% FBB to steal 38% (low?). Also I am very far from an expert in blinds play so about the tactics I would listen to sthief and the others instead [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
If some really good player want to share how much they lose in the blinds that would be interesting...

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

Thanks for the responses to my question guys.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Note: I don't want see the term "pot odds" referred to preflop play once in this thread. it's a pet peeve of mine. In most cases, they don't apply

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it possible for you state in general why they don't apply. Perhaps when they do and don't apply. Do you not think they apply when you think you are drawing?

Sometimes I feel they do apply, like when I am sitting in the BB with 33 or 65s. Then again they may not apply when I am sitting in the SB with T9s.

Where does the line grey? Is she is or is she aint?

Shed the light so this can be my pet peeve too?

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

A good post most worthy of discussion. I'm not sure what the answers are, but I'm starting to believe that most players defend way too much. Check that, I KNOW most players defend way too much, but I'm starting to believe that even most GOOD players defend way too much. As you point out, OOP with a marginal hand is an extremely difficult situation which all but the very best players are unlikely to handle properly on a regular basis. To paraphrase what you said in your post, you can spew a lot of chips in these situations. I highly doubt there are many players who would give up much EV if they defended their blinds 20% less.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I highly doubt there are many players who would give up much EV if they defended their blinds 20% less.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the guy to your right figures out that you don't defend very often at all (as they do in higher limits) you're giving up a significant amount of money.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok I think I know what I meant. basically he's raising because he thinks his hand is worth 2 bets. our hand doesn't need to be worth 2 bets to call. only one.

[/ QUOTE ]

but does it only need to be worth one to call, because he put 2 in, since we now have those good odds [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

lol, im sorry thief, Im just being a wank [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
...how much they lose in the blinds that would be interesting...

[/ QUOTE ]

119k hands in current DB for 10/20:

SB - (.09), VPIP - 31.98, Folded SB to steal - 83.92,
BB - (.13), VPIP - 26.87, Folded BB to steal - 52.51, Folded to steal HU - 45.31

___1___

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you hate it more than when he just calls and then CR the flop ?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. this is my [censored] pet peeve. because they only do it when i miss and i have to make a marginal judgment about calling down or folding [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great post Sthief.

[ QUOTE ]
- We need to get to showdown as often as we can. This is is citical in making sure you win close to as much as you should. For example, if you have 54 against QJ, you'll win 37% of the time hot and cold, but if you're checking and folding the flop 90% of the time, then you're obviously going to win less than 10% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that not true? It seems it would be OK to fold out 90% of the time if it maximizes our BB's won?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the first few sections in the chapter on SH play in HPFAP.

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

On a similar tangent, I think it would be interesting for some players to do mathematical analysis of defending out of the big blind vs some hand ranges. It is fairly easy to do using poker stove, and I may just do it myself if i can free up and hour or 2.

I would like to see something like this. A given player that raises preflop from the button 10%, then a player that steal-raises 20%, the 30%. analyze what range of hands these percentages probably include, then figure what hands would show a profit for us when we defend out of the bb. (assume SB folds for now)

From the math side, we are rarely going to find a hand that is a 3.5-1 dog preflop, so we have to do some kind of analysis of the post flop EV of each hand.

We are OOP against a laggy player with a weak holding. How many BB on average will we lose with hand A against this range? Hand B against the same range?

We could just use theory to determine an estimated expected win/loss of each hand. There is no reason to calculate the value of each individual hand, because we can just get relative mins, maxs, and medians. e.g. take AA, 22, 72 and then some median hand for each, q6 and medium ace and medium king, 77. Then can scale the values we get to represent other hands that we didn't calculate exactly.

How many bets will you expect to earn when you defend with aces out of big blind, with 7-2, with q-6? and with 22? then compare EV of calling vs 3 betting.

To do this comparison vs the hand range of the opponent, we will have to consider this... We take our min, max and median hand, and then compare it to every given possible hand combination within the villains range. Not every individual hand, but a hand representative of every hand. E.g. an over pair (just take 77 to represent every over pair 77-AA; while these values wont be exact, the difference shouldn't be enough to matter), a hand with 1 over card and 1 under card etc.

If we assume we have deuces, the only worthwhile comparisons would be to do an overpair (77), 2 connecting overs(j10), 2 non connecting overs (A7), and a hand with a deuce (q2). (and maybe 22 if you want to get technical) Then we can assign values.

Say against 77 we expect to lose 3bb(random number) with 22.
We then plug this into his hand range. If villains steal raise % is 30%, and in his hand rage we assume he steals with all pocket pairs, and all pocket pairs account for 1/3
of his total hand range. Then, (.33 x -3bb) + (probability of hand x net gain or loss) + same over and over until we account for all 30%.

By doing this we could get a pretty accurate range of correct defending standards against certain steal raisers.

We can use variations on this method to find how much we will earn 3betting vs calling and check raising the flop.

This is just off the top of my head, so it maybe too simple or silly, but I feel we lack mathematical models in many of our discussions.

truth

Re: Blind Defense (In General)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Note: I don't want see the term "pot odds" referred to preflop play once in this thread. it's a pet peeve of mine. In most cases, they don't apply

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it possible for you state in general why they don't apply. Perhaps when they do and don't apply. Do you not think they apply when you think you are drawing?

Sometimes I feel they do apply, like when I am sitting in the BB with 33 or 65s. Then again they may not apply when I am sitting in the SB with T9s.

Where does the line grey? Is she is or is she aint?

Shed the light so this can be my pet peeve too?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a sense, it is pot odds. The thing is that you can't just take 3.5-1 in a vacuum. You have to account for how much you lose (or win) with the hand post flop. With the weakest hands you will defend with, you will lose a little bit on average post flop. So long as you loose less than 2.5 small bets post flop on average, you should play. Get the idea behind it?