Two Plus Two Older Archives - 3-bet this river?

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3-bet this river?

UTG is extremely loose passive post-flop. Recently called a river bet with Q-high against me, and overcalled a river bet with NINE high in a 3-way pot I wasn't in. Either drunk or retarded, but is usually calling all over the place, rarely betting. Can i 3-bet on the end? Also i should have lead on the flop but the river is my concern here.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (9.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
UTG has 5c Ac (two pair, aces and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.25 BB.

Re: 3-bet this river?

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is extremely loose passive post-flop...
... but is usually calling all over the place, rarely betting. Can i 3-bet on the end?

[/ QUOTE ]

That answers your question?

Going back to see the results now

Re: 3-bet this river?

what are his pf standads? Your read is he is very passive post flop, but he looks aggressive both pf and post based on this hand.

Not sure if I would 3 bet this river.

Re: 3-bet this river?

If you trust your reads, then I wouldn't 3-bet the river. You're behind most reasonable capping hands, and chopping with another AK. Plus, the flush draw just came in, and a loose passive player is raising the turn and river aggressor.

I don't mind the check on the flop against a pre-flop capper; if he bets and MP raises, I'd get out.

Re: 3-bet this river?

The fact that he's 'loose' is certain, the 'passive' part of the read comes from the fact that he's always calling with literally nothing. He'll sometimes bet when he has a piece of the board though, but his play is highly HIGHLY erratic. The fact that he's raising me only tells me he has SOMETHING but it could be an A-trash kicker given his erratic play, but it also could be JT or diamonds. Given the fact that the river completes 2 draws I don't hate just calling the raise.

Re: 3-bet this river?

Sure, three bet if he's calling down with nine high, he could have AQ or even AJ if he's as bad as you described. I think this is very read dependent because most people know if they raise on the end, like he did, they're gonna get called given the action up till then. He probably thinks his A10o is good here, I'd feel comfortable three-betting and think most of the time he just calls and you win. When he caps there's a possibility he has AQ or worse, so I'd call, but wouldn't like it nearly as much as when he just calls.

Edit: I missed the part that says he 'rarely raises though', that changes my answer to a call.

Re: 3-bet this river?

i couldn't avoid looking at results, but i'll post my original thoughts before i read that: i'm more concerned with a slow played set than the flush as there are no reasonable PRF capping hand that would have the flush, so no, i'm not 3-betting that river for that fact.

Re: 3-bet this river?

Here's a couple hands I witnessed prior to this hand. Which lead me to believe he was most likely literally drunk and therefore putting him on a hand would most likely be a worthless exercise. Villain from 1st hand is BB here, and SB in the next one.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO folds, Hero folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, MP calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

BB has 3s Qd (high card, queen).
UTG has 7c 8c (straight, jack high).
MP has 3c 5c (one pair, fives).
Outcome: UTG wins 11 BB.

-----------------

Literally the next hand:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP checks, CO bets, SB calls, MP raises, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP bets, CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

SB has 8h 4s (one pair, kings).
MP has Kh 7s (three of a kind, kings).
CO has 3c 9c (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP wins 12.50 BB.

(CO must be his brother)

-------------------------------

Very next hand

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Turn: (1.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Button calls, BB raises, UTG calls, Button calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

BB has Jd 9d (flush, queen high).
Button has Kc 6d (high card, king).
Outcome: BB wins 9.75 BB.

-------------------------

So against an opponent who's brain seems to be functioning on even a basic level i think just calling the raise on that river is a no-brainer. Against this opponent I wasn't sure though.

Re: 3-bet this river?

After seeing these two hands by villian, I would 3bet the river / call if capped. His play is just too crazy to put him on the rational range of hands which beat you here.

Also, it would be best not to list results, as it's just too tempting to look at them and then the replies will be biased.

Re: 3-bet this river?

I would 3-bet the river. You have a strong hand, and he could have a wide range of hands, including AQ, A5, A2, Ax, KQ, K5, K2, Kx, Q5, Q2, and Qx. It's true that he could also have a straight or a flush, but with his wild pattern you already observe, I wouldn't fear it.

Re: 3-bet this river?

I don't lead the flop here in this hand. A passive player will usually have you beat here, or another AK. You will be raised.

It sounds super weak, but I really think I just check-call all the way down. I would expect you to be behind almost all of his hands here.

Given your line though, you certainly cannot 3-bet the river because he is going to cap it 9/10 times there.

Re: 3-bet this river?

[ QUOTE ]
Given your line though, you certainly cannot 3-bet the river because he is going to cap it 9/10 times there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it a good thing to have Wild Villain cap in light of Hero having a strong hand and being against Wild Villain?

Re: 3-bet this river?

While there isn't direct evidence villian bets/raises with weak made hands, given the 3 examples of calling / overcalling with obvious losers, I agree that getting the river capped here against this player is a good thing.

Re: 3-bet this river?

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is extremely loose passive post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it a good thing to have Wild Villain cap in light of Hero having a strong hand and being against Wild Villain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never taken these two to mean the same thing. Why do you think Villain is wild? His play here is perfectly consistant with the way a loose-passive would play QQ-AA or AK

Re: 3-bet this river?

I agree loose-passive does not equal wild, and there isn't evidence provided by OP on what villian bets/raises with.

However the 3 hands provided by OP in the middle of this thread do seem to indicate villian is a moran and thus I don't fear his cap as much as vs 'normal' players.

Re: 3-bet this river?

[ QUOTE ]
I agree loose-passive does not equal wild, and there isn't evidence provided by OP on what villian bets/raises with.

However the 3 hands provided by OP in the middle of this thread do seem to indicate villian is a moran and thus I don't fear his cap as much as vs 'normal' players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I didn't read the thread before this discussion. Looking at those hands though, I don't think we can make any inferences about what it means when he is capping hands. He has only shown that he is VERY loose-passive, which makes me even more scared when he shows aggression.

Re: 3-bet this river?

The hands shown certainly make me inclinded to value bet villian with more marginal hands than typically needed.

Without agression reads from villian, I can see just calling the river, as we don't know what he's going to war with, especially as you say he's quite Loose-Passive. If he's in as many hands as this sample represents, we should have some idea what he's raising here with pretty shortly for future decisions.

Re: 3-bet this river?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG is extremely loose passive post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it a good thing to have Wild Villain cap in light of Hero having a strong hand and being against Wild Villain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never taken these two to mean the same thing. Why do you think Villain is wild? His play here is perfectly consistant with the way a loose-passive would play QQ-AA or AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the delayed response. I echo Aces' comments. Villain appears wild from the specific hand examples given. I agree if he was a passive player, I would not 3-bet the river.

Re: 3-bet this river?

After only calling you on the turn (and not raising you), but then waking up with a raise on the river, I'd expect to be shown anything from a set to the flush. There are certainly hands that you beat here, but I'd be more inclined to call this rather than 3-bet it.

I agree, you should have either led the flop or C/R'd it to get a feel for where you're at in this hand. You say this guy is passive, so any sign of aggression here would put up some warning signs for me.

- thing85 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: 3-bet this river?

My read of him as passive was primarily based on those pots where he had nothing (majority of the time) he was a check-calling machine. But that's cause he had nothing. Turns out he'll bet if he has anything.

Re: 3-bet this river?

I think you can. He will much more likely show Ax or a weaker 2pair than AA, KK or a flush.
The loose-passive read of course speaks against raising but part of our read also is that villain is a very bad player.