A hand from the archives
 

A discussion that took place in a hand posted earlier today reminded me of this hand from the archives. I think discussing it again may be useful.

Loose EP open limps, solid TAG raises in the hijack, TAG calls in CO, Hero calls on Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], weak/loose calls in SB and TAG calls in BB.

Flop: (12 sb) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
Blinds checks, EP bets, hijack raises, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds, EP calls.

Turn: (10 bb) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Checked to hijack who bets, Hero raises, SB folds, EP folds, hijack 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (16 bb) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hijack checks, Hero bets, hijack calls.

Ignore preflop. Don't tell Hero to find a new game.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: A hand from the archives
 

[ QUOTE ]
A discussion that took place in a hand posted earlier today reminded me of this hand from the archives. I think discussing it again may be useful.

Loose EP open limps, solid TAG raises in the hijack, TAG calls in CO, Hero calls on Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], weak/loose calls in SB and TAG calls in BB.

Flop: (12 sb) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
Blinds checks, EP bets, hijack raises, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds, EP calls.

Turn: (10 bb) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Checked to hijack who bets, Hero raises, SB folds, EP folds, hijack 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (16 bb) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hijack checks, Hero bets, hijack calls.

Ignore preflop. Don't tell Hero to find a new game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This had got to be the worst hand I've ever seen.

You CC PF with trash.

You CC on the flop with bottom pair no kicker with two trashy backdoor draws.

You raise the turn with your trash backdoor draws.

You river a trash two pair.

Good job.

And when I say 'you', i don't mean JT, just the Hero.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

the only things i like about this hand are the turn raise and the river bet.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

Preflop was asked to be ignored. Run some math on th flop call. It's nowhere near as bad as you make it sound.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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the only things i like about this hand are the turn raise and the river bet.

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You need to (learn to) elaborate. There is a lot going on in this hand.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

Why do you like the turn raise? You are not folding out a higher flush or str8 draw in this big pot. You're going to be folding out a lot of hands that you want paying you off when you hit.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

The stuff earlier is more debatable, obviously the preflop call is a long run bad move and the flop call is goofy. The turn is sexy but in a "might get you in the clinic" kinda way. All that said, the river is an obvious value bet and the most obvious part of the hand.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

"obvious"

Re: A hand from the archives
 

I think the flop call is only close if you are closing the action.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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Preflop was asked to be ignored. Run some math on th flop call. It's nowhere near as bad as you make it sound.

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especially considering that the hero is getting 7.5-1 on the flop call with bottom pair+Bdoor straight and bdoor flush draws. that's a good flop call

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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the only things i like about this hand are the turn raise and the river bet.

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You need to (learn to) elaborate. There is a lot going on in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry.

ok, the preflop call is not good. we know that. i dont think it's a good call on the flop with 2 backdoor draws and a pair either.

on the turn we need to get sb out. as you can see our 2pr outs are tainted and theres a chance we split if we hit our straight. so we need to raise here, especially since we have prolly somewhere around 15-19 outs.

on the river our bet is a value bet. an overpair is likely as is a hand like KJs. i think he'd bet an ace here and possibly even a set if he's really a solid tag. so, even though our bet might lose us 1BB in this case I think we're good at least 50% of the time here.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

The flop call is close but if you can count on a call or two behind with about 5ish outs including bd draws and some implied odds I would peel one here.

The turn looks good to me, a raise may win it there and there are plenty of ways to improve. The 3bet tells me I need to hit a draw. I put hijack on AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AJ, or KJ (maybe even of hearts).

On the river we hit 2pr (still behind JJ, AJ, AA but ahead of QQ,KK,KJ) . It's likely he checks in fear of the straight which would mean we are only behind JJ so we should bet.

Nice hand and I doubt I would think this much in the middle of the hand even though I should.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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The turn looks good to me, a raise may win it there and there are plenty of ways to improve.

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Raising here strictly for semibluffing reasons is bad.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

mmbt0ne: on the flop, i call. hijack is raising AsKs, AhQh, etc, etc here to try to knock people out, and get HU with the loose EP. [censored] him and call.
mmbt0ne: if it gets 3bet and capped, then you can go "oh [censored], i need to watch out"
mmbt0ne: similar reason with raising the turn
soma: flop call is boring
soma: odds alone make it worthwhile
mmbt0ne: although, at this time, we can be pretty sure he has at least a pair
mmbt0ne: and not just overs
mmbt0ne: unless he has hearts
mmbt0ne: because a solid tag doesnt usually fire another barrel UI against this crew
soma: right
mmbt0ne: a raise makes it -EV for a naked A to call on straight outs
mmbt0ne: which is important if we can clear up your 5s
mmbt0ne: when everyone folds, and hijack 3bets, you go, eff me in the a, i better hit this river

editted for soma purposes.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

this whole hand rules

Re: A hand from the archives
 

the reason i dont like the flop call is that it sucks to get 3bet here. then there's the chance you're drawing to runners.

it definitely isnt horrible though, i just wouldnt do it

Re: A hand from the archives
 

[ QUOTE ]

This had got to be the worst hand I've ever seen.

You CC PF with trash.

You CC on the flop with bottom pair no kicker with two trashy backdoor draws.

You raise the turn with your trash backdoor draws.

You river a trash two pair.

Good job.

And when I say 'you', i don't mean JT, just the Hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the best hand I've ever seen, ignoring pre-flop.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

you need to explain, preflop was horrid and flop was very marginal. turn and river were easy imo. what makes this the best hand ever?

Re: A hand from the archives
 

FWIW- there's some like meta posting reasons you might want to re-think your response. If a hand that has to many obvious seeming flaws received enough discussion that it was recalled from the archives, I think it's a good contextual clue that it's not what you think it is. I remember the original, and seeing that it had some 50 responses and thinking "there's no way this hand is as straight forward as I think, because it simply wouldn't have generated this much volume". That allowed me to be more open minding and see what I was missing before.

I mention this because I think the same deductive reasoning and use of context that tells you "hmm, something is up with this post" is the reasoning that aids you as a poker player in term of hand reading and so forth. It's an important skill to develop.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

I was exaggerating because this hand definitely isn't as bad as TheHip41 was making it seem. It's a good hand.

I didn't find the turn easy. My initial reaction was to call as you don't have greater than 50% equity, but after I read:

"mmbt0ne: a raise makes it -EV for a naked A to call on straight outs "

It made sense and it actually worked and made the difference, which was cool.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

If you removed the ep loose limper from the hand i love pf, against 3 tags and a weak loose ur only getting action from made hands or when there drawing. There gonna go mad with there aces on a rag board and ur only coming back at them when ur made and ur getting so much value from ur small 2 pairs or small flushes/str8s.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

Cap for value a hand that at best we have a 35% chance of winning?

Re: A hand from the archives
 

flop: 3-5's, 2-2's, b/d flush, b/d straight(8 outs) but it's really more like 3.5-4 outs to actually win the hand, getting around 8-1 (assuming EP calls) in immediate pot odds, this play isn't terrible when you consider implied odds. However, you still have to consider reverse implied odds when you improve to second best hands and lose (which isn't unlikely given the pot size). I think I fold because there is a good chance that EP will 3-bet and PFR will cap or someone else will 3-bet, etc.

Turn: I don't like the raise at all, because you are basically isolating the PFR who, at this point, has basically established he has a hand and is ready to show it down.

River: I don't see any other way you could play that.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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Cap for value a hand that at best we have a 35% chance of winning?

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There is no value in that.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

Sorry mean to reply to SoSo's post.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

Read mmbt0ne's post, that turn raise is pretty much mandatory.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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Turn: I don't like the raise at all, because you are basically isolating the PFR who, at this point, has basically established he has a hand and is ready to show it down.

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The key to this hand is understanding the turn raise.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

i don't recall putting nething in my post about capping the turn for value.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

Had I been playing this, I would have folded, because it took me way too long to count the outs properly. And, even after taking a long time, I'm still not sure if I'm right or not.

Ignoring pre-flop... I'd say Hero has about 6 outs on the flop. For the backdoor flush and straights, I'd give him about 1.5 outs each. Then for the remaining 2s, about 1.5 outs (a 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] gives someone else a possible flush draw and maybe a FH) and the 5s about 1.5 outs (flush draw and straight possibilites). So, Hero needs pot odds of 6.7 to 1 to continue. We have 7.5 to 1.

On the turn, it's an easy raise for value and at 16 to 1, Hero definitely has odds to call the re-raise. However, would a cap be in order for value at this point? This part, I'm unsure about.

The river is a definite bet. I don't think Villian liked the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] too much, and it didn't give us the nuts, but still a decent hand.

So, I agree with the line (minus pre-flop), but I'd like to know if there is any value in capping the turn. I guess I'll read everyone else's responses.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

No value of capping hte turn. You have only 43% equity against AJ or overpair, even less against JJ.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

this hand wasn't me was it?

lol.

anyways. to all you guys saying to fold the flop you're crazy. this is like the easiset flop call ever.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

bottom pair with crap kicker, a backdoor flush and straight draw? im folding on the flop. implied odds dont look so good.

is this way wrong?

but going on to the turn: nice pot odds here now, but that straight draw should'nt be considered open ended, i think if a 5 falls, you're very likely up against a bike, so i would count those only partially.

are we putting Hijack on a AK/AQ/KQ?

with no raise from Hijack, looks like no straight, biggest hand he's holding is a set of J's.

i dont think i would have lasted this long in this hand.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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this hand wasn't me was it?


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No.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

I was actually wondering if that was a hand of yours.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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are we putting Hijack on a AK/AQ/KQ?


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No.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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this is like the easiset flop call ever.

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i can think of some easier flop calls.

but seriously, i think it's close and very marginal at best. id like to hear your thinking but its 0 EV imo.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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this is like the easiset flop call ever.

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i can think of some easier flop calls.

but seriously, i think it's close and very marginal at best. id like to hear your thinking but its 0 EV imo.

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How about sharing yours? You can't just hypothesize that it's neutral EV; it takes work to reach that conclusion.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

there's a ton of things we need to consider that make this a close flop call. i can't do all the math right now but i'll give a few thoughts

1) getting 3bet here sucks especially when the hijack may cap
2) there are tons of situations where your hand improves (to a good draw, etc) and you put in two bets on the flop and the turn and get nothing out if it. there are even more situations where you put in 3 bets on the turn (since some cards that you hit, you have to raise to knock out EP) and stll get ntohing out of the river.
using this turn card as an example (the second best one in the deck i think) we had to put 3 bets in when we were less than 50% to win so we lost at least a few partial bets on the turn
3) even if you hit your 2pr you'll stll lose about 1 in 6 times
4) even if we hit our 2pr after certain turn cards we can still lose. whoever hijack is here is as likely to have AA as he is KK or QQ, and half as likely to have JJ which has us crushed. so even hitting our 2pr we lose 9 in 21 times
5) there's a chance we are drawing to runners after the flop.

Re: A hand from the archives
 

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No value of capping hte turn. You have only 43% equity against AJ or overpair, even less against JJ.

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All right, can someone explain this to me? I'm not sure how to figure this out.