Questionable slow play?
 

Now I'm not usually one for the slowplay with only TPTK, but here what do the panel think.. Players here in the hand are reasonable but not brilliant.

10/20 Party, full table 10 players

I have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG.

Preflop: I raise, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 cold calls, lots of folds, SB calls 1.5, BB folds.

Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 SB)
check,check,check

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
check,check,check

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
check, I bet, UTG+2 calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 5.5 BB

My reasons for the slowplay. Betting out with the Qxx flop is unlikely to get a caller unless someone else has a Queen. (15% chance?) and will only get raised by a hand which I'm behind (twopair or trips, 5%?). The chance of someone holding 2 hearts is small (5%, with 20% chance of hitting = 1% real risk of losing, 5% of missing bets?). Therefore with a 75% chance of taking the pot then and there, I decided to try to get someone to hit a lesser hand, hopefully with an Ace, or some other pair (Jack,Ten). Obviously risky as I don't like Kings or the board pairing. By waiting until the river I am more likely to get a call (or two) as people will not put me on AQ.

Does this stack up? Or is it rather too risky giving two free cards with only TPTK?

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

Given the action and results, your slowplay worked out. But in my experience (which is mostly not online), if UTG+2 is reasonable and he cold-called PF then he's going to at least call your flop bet (especially on a QXX board since it looks like it misses a PFR a lot) a lot of the time and SB may well call too. People like to try to outplay the PF raiser. Given that the flop checked through, the turn c/r is expert and you must know your opponent extremely well for this to be +ev.

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

I'm betting the flop. So many people autobet after a raise that they're not necessarily going to give you credit for anything here.

It might have worked this time, but I think in the long run you're giving up too much by letting people draw to better hands and only getting one more bet out of the pot.

I don't mind the folds if it means I take down 3.5BB now more frequently than i take down 5.5BB after giving my opponents two free cards.

You're not going to get folds every time either, and if you're going to take it down on the river why not take down a bigger pot.

I think it's too dangerous.

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

Preflop raising, then checking a flop like that looks mighty suspicous, even to some bad players.

A hand like TT could easily cold-call here and then try to play back at you on a flop like this. By checking you both A) arouse their suspicoun and B) allow them to take a cheap route to showdown or suck out.

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm betting the flop.

...

I think it's too dangerous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is my usual assessment. I bet the flop up to 95% of the time with TPTK. Or a checkraise if I'm up against aggressive players from early position. Here the table is quite passive (no stats sorry) and a smallish risk, but risky nonetheless.

Another side-effect is that having shown down a slow-played hand, you can get more free cards as people remember your monster hiding tendencies. Something I wasn't able to use as the opportunity didn't arise [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

When you have just top pair and you bet the flop and your opponents fold you should be very happy. You shouldnt be worrying about how many extra bets you couldve garnered if you played it a different way. Also on a Queen high flop, many people will call you down with any pair hoping you have AK,AJ,AT, so you lose out on all that action. And the flush draw is yet another reason to bet your hand since thats another person who will play with you. And one more point, since most preflop raisers will bet this flop vs 2 opponents every single time no matter what they have, your check here actually shows alot more strength than betting here, many people would put you on QQ in that spot. So if you want to show weakness and get alot of any pair calls, you should bet this flop and make some money

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

Good point. I was thinking that by checking it makes it look more like I have AK/AJ/JJ rather than strength, but you may be right. As I said I also bet there 95% of the time and tried the change-up [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

You think about betting the turn or were you trying to C/R ? This is one those plays were the stats might be helpful [IE Passive/Agro etc] I like the change up, but I think I prefer a turn bet and probably take it there. No need to let these guys keep drawing to the river.
Also do you bet a scare card if it comes on the river?

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good point. I was thinking that by checking it makes it look more like I have AK/AJ/JJ rather than strength, but you may be right. As I said I also bet there 95% of the time and tried the change-up [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Believe Me, I know this is not your typical line. And theres nothing wrong with varying your play once in a while especially in real life. I think a good time to make the play that you made is if you are in the pot with a habitual bluffer who loves to bet when checked too and is not much of a thinking player(ie he wont fear a monster since you checked the flop)

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

If someone bet the turn, I checkraise because I think I'm ahead.

If it gets checked through then it looks more like everyone hasn't got a Queen and I have more chance of a call on the river. So I didn't really mind too much either way.

I didn't know much about these guys but had a King come on the river and it gets bet by SB I likely fold as he should have to fear AK from me or the other guy. A flush or straight card I will call if bet, but not if it's raised behind me.

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

is this hand a joke?
post this in the small stakes forum (where it belongs) and let the $2/4 players tell why this hand sucks.

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

read the thread and you might learn something.

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
read the thread and you might learn something.

[/ QUOTE ]LOL!

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

My brain hurts reading this play. It is not good.

"My reasons for the slowplay. Betting out with the Qxx flop is unlikely to get a caller unless someone else has a Queen. (15% chance?) and "

??? Are you new to the Party 10/20? You'll get not only callers but raisers with bottom pair and even gutshots. Bet this flop 11 times out of 10.

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

15% was my number for the chance of another Queen, not the chance of a call. I wanted 1 or 2 big bets not 0,1 or 2 small bets. The table was playing quite passive at the time, hence the move... and btw, if you bet this flop 11 times out of 10 you'll get a flop checkraise in minus 10% of the time... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

what are these stats based upon?

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...The table was playing quite passive at the time, hence the move...

[/ QUOTE ]

all the more reason for a flop bet.
Listen: this is a place to get advice, not just to defend your play at the right one. Everyone who has wasted their time responding tells you to bet. And I promise you that everyone else was simply too offended by the play to enter this thread.
Hope the responses so far have helped.
There is no choice here but to bet.

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
is this hand a joke?
post this in the small stakes forum (where it belongs) and let the $2/4 players tell why this hand sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Questionable slow play?
 

I already stated at least once that my default (95%+) play here is to bet out, that's not the point of the thread. The point was, if a time would come to vary the play - to keep opponents off guard, to maybe grab an extra big bet or two, to set up a metagame benefit, was there a better line after the flop... was this the time? Lots of worthwhile avenues to explore.

Both westley and adjutor picked this up, but others prefer to ignore what I said (that I don't normally play this line) and basically comment on the fact that it's not the most suitable line, draw the conclusion that I don't know that and therefore are wasting their time with a simple problem, and miss the point of the post completely! I've been here long enough not to post "should I raise AKo preflop" or "party poker is rigged" rubbish [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

(although I might say in the 1400 hands I've played since 1st September, Party have given me just 1xAA,2xKK,3xQQ and 3xJJ but 11x55, 8x22 and 8x44 !!! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] )

I'll keep it simpler next time [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]